How many 20thC micro-collectors are there?

[Rob]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

[Coinery]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

That's just got to be worth a

[Gary D]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

That's just got to be worth a

I collect 20th century varieties

I think the biggest help would be for someone to list values. You can sort of work some out by doing a ratio calculation from Davies which is a start and the Freeman reprint helped for a while. Getting a variety recognised is the key though. Once it's in the likes of Spink your made. Just look at the 1953 proof 2/6, mine sat in my collection for several years valued at £18.56.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Gary D

[Peckris]

I'm a completist really, which naturally draws you into being a rarity hunter, because the rarities become the gaps that pathologically speaking, HAVE to be filled. Hence, to the likes of me who is beyond hope, the 1905 penny varieties are just as important as the 1903 penny varieties. A gap there would actually be more important to fill because there's no rarity excuse!

Books definitely change things. I can't be the only one who adds a variety to the must-have list as soon as he knows about it. The more books like Mr Grooms that reach the public the better as far as I'm concerned, because I'm afraid they don't sell well in the 20th century series. I can usually get decent prices if I stick them in the Shop and wait - eventually another autistic completist will come along, but if I put them in the auctions I can almost guarantee disappointment. I had a lovely D.2121 1946 1+B shilling go the other day for a cruel £3.97, which I paid £13 for 18 months ago. I had to have it, back then, you see, because it was a gapfill for me. Even though I trumpeted its different status to the normal 1946, it's unlikely that the buyer gave a hoot about the micro - it was just a top grade silver shilling. 1+B is £6 (1982) in Davies, compared to £2.50 for the usual type, which gives you an idea of relative scarcity.

Try to get anyone interested in Elizabeth II micros and you're onto a hiding to nothing.

Bronze, I think, is a bit different. Freeman numbers seem to carry more weight than Davies numbers. Even recessed ears, not even given F. numbers, seem to fly off the shelves even at VF level. Maybe because they're in CCGB? That would be an interesting study - which micros are in which books, and thus which books stimulate more sales. Spink of course, made 1920/21 silver dead easy to sell when they started including the varieties there. I know they got them wrong, Peck, but that didn't seem to matter. Any publicity is good publicity!

I think I was more chuffed they had actually listened to me, than annoyed that they had made an error

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

What I am curious about, and now making reference to the list that Declan put up, is the number of people who actually collect those particular additions, to determine the number of people who are actively collecting the newly catalogued varieties of the 20thC?

As we have loosely established that varieties only tend to be collected when catalogued in print, I was thinking the number of collectors of the new Groom additions, for example, would not likely exceed the number of copies distributed. A correlation must exist between new publications distributed AND the number of active collectors of the new varieties contained within it?

Everson might also be another good contender here. I wonder how many farthing collectors actually collect the E numbers? Or do they collect the BMC varieties and list the E numbers just because they are available, much like SKI does by adding the Groom die-pairings?

I'd pay for an app. Dave!

Declan's actually wrong about the 1915/16 recessed ear varieties - they have been known about, noted and collected as long as I have been, which is more years than I care to admit!

[davidrj]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

1918KN penny with bird's foot flaw - DG says present in other years but I've not found any

Peck mentions it as a footnote, but not in Freeman

[Coinery]

I'm a completist really, which naturally draws you into being a rarity hunter, because the rarities become the gaps that pathologically speaking, HAVE to be filled. Hence, to the likes of me who is beyond hope, the 1905 penny varieties are just as important as the 1903 penny varieties. A gap there would actually be more important to fill because there's no rarity excuse!

Books definitely change things. I can't be the only one who adds a variety to the must-have list as soon as he knows about it. The more books like Mr Grooms that reach the public the better as far as I'm concerned, because I'm afraid they don't sell well in the 20th century series. I can usually get decent prices if I stick them in the Shop and wait - eventually another autistic completist will come along, but if I put them in the auctions I can almost guarantee disappointment. I had a lovely D.2121 1946 1+B shilling go the other day for a cruel £3.97, which I paid £13 for 18 months ago. I had to have it, back then, you see, because it was a gapfill for me. Even though I trumpeted its different status to the normal 1946, it's unlikely that the buyer gave a hoot about the micro - it was just a top grade silver shilling. 1+B is £6 (1982) in Davies, compared to £2.50 for the usual type, which gives you an idea of relative scarcity.

Try to get anyone interested in Elizabeth II micros and you're onto a hiding to nothing.

Bronze, I think, is a bit different. Freeman numbers seem to carry more weight than Davies numbers. Even recessed ears, not even given F. numbers, seem to fly off the shelves even at VF level. Maybe because they're in CCGB? That would be an interesting study - which micros are in which books, and thus which books stimulate more sales. Spink of course, made 1920/21 silver dead easy to sell when they started including the varieties there. I know they got them wrong, Peck, but that didn't seem to matter. Any publicity is good publicity!

I think I was more chuffed they had actually listened to me, than annoyed that they had made an error

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

What I am curious about, and now making reference to the list that Declan put up, is the number of people who actually collect those particular additions, to determine the number of people who are actively collecting the newly catalogued varieties of the 20thC?

As we have loosely established that varieties only tend to be collected when catalogued in print, I was thinking the number of collectors of the new Groom additions, for example, would not likely exceed the number of copies distributed. A correlation must exist between new publications distributed AND the number of active collectors of the new varieties contained within it?

Everson might also be another good contender here. I wonder how many farthing collectors actually collect the E numbers? Or do they collect the BMC varieties and list the E numbers just because they are available, much like SKI does by adding the Groom die-pairings?

I'd pay for an app. Dave!

Declan's actually wrong about the 1915/16 recessed ear varieties - they have been known about, noted and collected as long as I have been, which is more years than I care to admit!

I just knew he wasn't perfect! Despite his Superhuman reflexes in responding to the enquiry, and his bright yellow jacket, he's just a man beneath that lycra exterior!

Just out of interest Peck, where were the recessed's first documented as an official variety; as I'm guessing, in view of the previous posts, that it must have been officially recorded somewhere to have been officially collected?

[declanwmagee]

Just out of interest Peck, where were the recessed's first documented as an official variety; as I'm guessing, in view of the previous posts, that it must have been officially recorded somewhere to have been officially collected?

I think Freeman mentions them, just doesn't give them a number - a bit like Pecks treatment of the Bird's Foot.

Only AnorakMan can save us now...

[argentumandcoins]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

[Coinery]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

Oh, my God, you're ALL at it! Even Rob with his C1 halfcrown micro-varieties, if I remember rightly!

I only ever recall Richard in denial of this micro-disease!

Once I have the entire G5 set, I too will likely seek out the micros, and add the occasional proof coin as and when they appear! Having said that, I do have the flat AND hollow neck farthings!

[Accumulator]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

A great find John! How many 1937 sets did you have to search to find that one? Any clues about what to look for? Pictures when it arrives, please, though I know proofs are notoriously difficult to photograph.

[Gary1000]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

So do you have all three in currecy as well?

[Nick]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

A great find John! How many 1937 sets did you have to search to find that one? Any clues about what to look for? Pictures when it arrives, please, though I know proofs are notoriously difficult to photograph.

When I bought a 1937 proof set to obtain the florin with the type B reverse, that proof set also contained a 2+B proof penny. It's not easy to spot, so you'd need a decent photo to identify one in a catalogue or online. Groom gives a few ways to identify one: the first is P of IMP slightly right of border tooth rather than directly to a tooth for obv 1.

Here's mine:

[argentumandcoins]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

So do you have all three in currecy as well?

Yes, with multiple examples of most for sale in UNC. The 2 commoner proofs are already there as well of course.

[argentumandcoins]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

A great find John! How many 1937 sets did you have to search to find that one? Any clues about what to look for? Pictures when it arrives, please, though I know proofs are notoriously difficult to photograph.

Lots and lots and lots, but, they are obviously still out there for us Penny men to find Steve!

The coin is now across in Durham but I will take a pic when next visiting the old boy. There are actually quite a few additions to the Pennies but most on here would cringe to see flat washers costing 4 figure sums......

[Gary1000]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

So do you have all three in currecy as well?

Yes, with multiple examples of most for sale in UNC. The 2 commoner proofs are already there as well of course.

Yes I realised that it was a bumb question just after I hit the post button. I picked up my unlisted proof as a single 4-5 years ago from a seller in Greece of all places.

[davidrj]

There are actually quite a few additions to the Pennies but most on here would cringe to see flat washers costing 4 figure sums......

As always it's a question of where you draw the line.

for example the the 1918KN penny exists in at least 4 micro varieties - narrow and wide spaced KN both exist without and without the "bird's foot".

I have examples of each as a "completist"; but I'm happy with my EF "normal" example, and wouldn't actively pursue a higher grade of the others

Does anyone have a picture of the bird's foot in high grade?

David

[Peter]

I like varieties who wants fillet steak every night.

I have got Mr Grooms book and maybe 95% of reference books Including a Bramah (courtesy of John ...Chingford ).I can't put the book down.

We all have our favourites.Keeps me off the streets and maybe there is a book in there somewhere.I can bore Mrs Peter but my youngest has picked Dad's hobby to get a few things.She ID'd a R/E 1856 1/4d within seconds.

I got both my daughters a tray of 1895-1967 pennies and some very nice examples....no open 3 but all the KN,H & ME single 1940 exurge...sad,sad Man.My best find was the 1955-59 pennies.

[Gary D]

There are actually quite a few additions to the Pennies but most on here would cringe to see flat washers costing 4 figure sums......

As always it's a question of where you draw the line.

for example the the 1918KN penny exists in at least 4 micro varieties - narrow and wide spaced KN both exist without and without the "bird's foot".

I have examples of each as a "completist"; but I'm happy with my EF "normal" example, and wouldn't actively pursue a higher grade of the others

Does anyone have a picture of the bird's foot in high grade?

David

[davidrj]

There are actually quite a few additions to the Pennies but most on here would cringe to see flat washers costing 4 figure sums......

As always it's a question of where you draw the line.

for example the the 1918KN penny exists in at least 4 micro varieties - narrow and wide spaced KN both exist without and without the "bird's foot".

I have examples of each as a "completist"; but I'm happy with my EF "normal" example, and wouldn't actively pursue a higher grade of the others

Does anyone have a picture of the bird's foot in high grade?

David

Ta! interestingly both my example and yours show the same die crack on the E of DEI - need to relook at my other examples

[davidrj]

There are actually quite a few additions to the Pennies but most on here would cringe to see flat washers costing 4 figure sums......

As always it's a question of where you draw the line.

for example the the 1918KN penny exists in at least 4 micro varieties - narrow and wide spaced KN both exist without and without the "bird's foot".

I have examples of each as a "completist"; but I'm happy with my EF "normal" example, and wouldn't actively pursue a higher grade of the others

Does anyone have a picture of the bird's foot in high grade?

David

Ta!

My example and yours both show the same die crack on the E of DEI - need to relook at my other examples

[TomGoodheart]

Oh, my God, you're ALL at it! Even Rob with his C1 halfcrown micro-varieties, if I remember rightly!

I only ever recall Richard in denial of this micro-disease!

Once I have the entire G5 set, I too will likely seek out the micros, and add the occasional proof coin as and when they appear! Having said that, I do have the flat AND hollow neck farthings!

LOL I haven't even got all the TYPES for Tower Charles I shillings yet! After that I plan on getting an example of each obv/rev combination, then I can start working on the various privy marks for each of those ...

.. after that the major published curiosities such as legend errors/ mules will need to be completed before I could even consider what for hammered coins would amount to a die study.

Which I will be delighted to do as soon as I have the £100,000 I estimate might be needed for such an enterprise.

Of course, if anyone is keen ... donations will be welcomed!

[declanwmagee]

Ta!

My example and yours both show the same die crack on the E of DEI - need to relook at my other examples

Same die crack here too. Presumably the bird's foot, as a flaw, is only present on one die.

If there were 3.6m 1918 H and KNs, and, according to V R Court, 32.6% of those were KNs, that makes 1.193m KNs.

Freeman reckoned the Bird's Foot constituted 10% of 1918 KNs, so that means that this one duff die knocked out a little over 119,000 coins.

Does that sound reasonable, or way off?

Edited April 19, 2013 by declanwmagee

[Rob]

Well.... I bought a 1937 proof set this week to acquire the unlisted Obverse 2 proof Penny. If it comes in bronze or is a Halfcrown it would probably be sought out, although the completist tag is one that probably fits me better

Oh, my God, you're ALL at it! Even Rob with his C1 halfcrown micro-varieties, if I remember rightly!

I only ever recall Richard in denial of this micro-disease!

Once I have the entire G5 set, I too will likely seek out the micros, and add the occasional proof coin as and when they appear! Having said that, I do have the flat AND hollow neck farthings!

That's a means to an end because I'm looking for die sequences, and the the underlying erased detail holds the key.

[Peckris]

Just out of interest Peck, where were the recessed's first documented as an official variety; as I'm guessing, in view of the previous posts, that it must have been officially recorded somewhere to have been officially collected?

I think Freeman mentions them, just doesn't give them a number - a bit like Pecks treatment of the Bird's Foot.

Only AnorakMan can save us now...

I don't know. As Declan says, there's a reference in Freeman, but it's been a talking point in the magazines and among collectors for decades, so I'm not sure what counts as "official". DaveG may have been the first to point out the 'broken tooth' that accompanies it though?

[declanwmagee]

the 'broken tooth'

which also suggests a single die variety..?