It's amazing what photography can do!?

[AtlasNumismatics]

17 hours ago, Rob said:

I take your point about  PCGS' procedures, but it still doesn't address the question of how do I distinguish between those treated with solution (MS something?) and those that are 'PCGS or NGC blue'? Call me old fashioned, but I like to receive a coin that visually is at least a close fit to the colour and tone as listed at the time of purchase. If I was to purchase the coin in question and armed with the knowledge that it started out as a brown coin, would I receive a blue coin or a brown one?

It matters because I have bought a blue coin in the past that actually turned out to be blue in hand and I wasn't overly impressed. Assuming I am addressing Mr Rix, in 2008 I purchased a coin from yourself whilst still at NEN which was euphemistically slabbed NGC MS63BN. See below for a good approximation to the colour. It's so unnaturally coloured with an even blue sheen across the whole surface that nobody could reasonably defend it as un-tampered with. The slab even had a little blue sticker which matched the coin's colour to perfection - designer colours?

On a serious note, there is a genuine credibility issue here when the images don't reflect reality. 

 

The conservation services of PCGS and NGC (as well as ICG grading service and private dealerships) do not disclose their conservation methods and techniques. In addition none of the grading services disclose conservation status on their certificates. For this reason I would suggest simply returning items that are not to your liking in hand.

[AtlasNumismatics]

9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, but you're now in possession of the coin ready for sale. So can you confirm that its current appearance to the naked eye is the same as the one shown in the thread starter first post above (ie: blue)?

Or not?

 

The lighting source and angle of viewing/photography play a large role in how any coin appears either in a photograph or in hand. In my opinion the PCGS image emphasizes the color while the London Coin image muted the color significantly, which was also obscured by residue. All of the items we sell have a no-questions-asked return privilege. 

As far as pricing, we do not disclose our pricing methods. We dot sell any coins as investments, only as collectibles. On some items we take losses while on other items we expect to make profits. Sometimes we win items at auction for significantly less than we are prepared to pay for them. We encourage our clients to do their own independent price research. Simply as an example you may see another proof of this date here: 

 

Auction World Co., Ltd. > Auction 23	Auction date: 16 January 2021
Lot number: 3500 Price realized: 900,000 JPY    (Approx. 8,665 USD / 7,165 EUR / 6,378 GBP / 7,712 CHF)	Save this lot Jump to this lot in the auction Show similar lots
Lot description: GREAT BRITAIN Victoria Victoria (1837-1901) / Penny 1859 / S-3948 KM-739 Young Head The number of existing young heads seems to be a little higher than 1856, but it is the rarest proof penny coin available. There is no doubt that it is an issue. ⓇⓇ / NGC-PF62BN Proof AU ~ UNC Starting Price: 200000 JPY

[azda]

There seems to be a whole lot of problems going on with conservation over at NGC. Those who collect modern silver proofs are having their coins come back after conservation with black marks or spotting that weren’t there when sent for grading.

NGC as we know take no liability for any damages to a coin, so they’ve already washed their hands of the issue. My best answer to the problem is why conserve a 2022 proof coin anway?

My YT friend always tells or told his sheep to get them conserved as he was making a whole pile of money, he would charge upfront and keep the money even if they weren’t conserved, the fools who sent him the coins always thought that if they paid their money then it was automatically conserved, but if conservation was required it was down to the opinion of NCS and not the YouTuber, that’s how he was buying many nice older coins. 😉

Fools and their money, and they still seem to trust him 🥸

Coin collecting has become a very dirty game for those who wish to make a killing.

Edited April 22, 2022 by azda

[Peckris 2]

18 hours ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

Some coins benefit from conservation, but many do not. Any difference in hair sharpness is due to photography. Removing PVC residue and organic matter with a solvent can change the color of a coin's surface. Questions about PCGS' photo procedures and post-processing should be directed to them.

   

Really? "Just photography "? Even Photoshop's unsharp mask doesn't paint in lines that aren’t there to begin with.

[AtlasNumismatics]

2 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

   

Really? "Just photography "? Even Photoshop's unsharp mask doesn't paint in lines that aren’t there to begin with.

Yes, really. I would recommend Mark Goodman’s numismatic photography book if you are interested in the topic.

[azda]

Jon Blyth does this same shit. Pumps up the lighting on the slabbed coins making them look like mirrors, just check the label number for another representation of the coin.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

The lighting source and angle of viewing/photography play a large role in how any coin appears either in a photograph or in hand. In my opinion the PCGS image emphasizes the color while the London Coin image muted the color significantly, which was also obscured by residue. All of the items we sell have a no-questions-asked return privilege. 

As far as pricing, we do not disclose our pricing methods. We dot sell any coins as investments, only as collectibles. On some items we take losses while on other items we expect to make profits. Sometimes we win items at auction for significantly less than we are prepared to pay for them. We encourage our clients to do their own independent price research. Simply as an example you may see another proof of this date here: 

 

 

1/ Hmmm. not sure that really answers my question, except perhaps in a very non commital way.

2/ Your pricing policy is numerically obvious. It doesn't require further explanation or excuse. 

  

Edited April 22, 2022 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

Yes, really. I would recommend Mark Goodman’s numismatic photography book if you are interested in the topic.

I don't need to look very far. As someone who has used Photoshop extensively, I'd estimate that any combination of Unsharp Mask, Smart Sharpen, and / or High Pass filters have been used on that image. As a picture of a genuine coin I'd always go with the London Coins image.

 

45 minutes ago, azda said:

Jon Blyth does this same shit. Pumps up the lighting on the slabbed coins making them look like mirrors, just check the label number for another representation of the coin.

The blue is  a joke. Reminds me of nothing so much as Coin Monthly's Year Book images at the head of each type in the Blue Pages - the isolation of the main design, legend, and rim, with the fields just a blank blue. But they weren't selling coins, just illustrating the different types.

[Coinery]

14 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, but you're now in possession of the coin ready for sale. So can you confirm that its current appearance to the naked eye is the same as the one shown in the thread starter first post above (ie: blue)?

Or not?

 

You could be waiting a long time for that answer I reckon!

[blakeyboy]

Will somebody please remind me  never to buy a coin from Atlas?

I'm so worried that I might do so accidentally....

 

I hate all this crap - gouge gouge gouge.....

 

[azda]

1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:

Will somebody please remind me  never to buy a coin from Atlas?

I'm so worried that I might do so accidentally....

 

I hate all this crap - gouge gouge gouge.....

 

Agreed 100% with your last sentence.

[VickySilver]

Yes, this type of business model is IMO destroying at least some of the market for GB coins, resulted in great profits and chasing true collectors out of the market in droves. Understandable is a slow(er) upward drive in prices but pump and dump methods with log value raise in "value" of coins reflects naked greed that we see now so often in the market.

BTW, I believe the blue color has been imparted to the surface by application of the product "MS 70" which when incompletely washed seems to do this to coin surfaces. I have seen some absolute rubbish about the solvent(s) in it removing overlying toning and revealing supposedly true colors beneath the toning. That IMHO is an absolute load of BS.

[copper123]

58 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

Yes, this type of business model is IMO destroying at least some of the market for GB coins, resulted in great profits and chasing true collectors out of the market in droves. Understandable is a slow(er) upward drive in prices but pump and dump methods with log value raise in "value" of coins reflects naked greed that we see now so often in the market.

BTW, I believe the blue color has been imparted to the surface by application of the product "MS 70" which when incompletely washed seems to do this to coin surfaces. I have seen some absolute rubbish about the solvent(s) in it removing overlying toning and revealing supposedly true colors beneath the toning. That IMHO is an absolute load of BS.

Coins start of blue and turn brown/chocolate colour what BS

Edited April 23, 2022 by copper123

[1949threepence]

I wish I chased that 1859 proof myself now - I very nearly did at the time. Just one or two uncertainties stopped me.

[azda]

I'm still scratching my head where the $10k plus comes from on their price. Do they do a roulette wheel with various numbers on and give it a whirl? Genuinely @AtlasNumismatics enlighten me how you come by your ticket price....Surely the cleaning, imaging and slabbing doesn't cost that much, maybe 100-150 dollars?

[blakeyboy]

It's all over the trade in vintage studio gear, to the point where I've had a client call me about a certain bit of kit,

a 12 channel mixer that's up for sale at a dealer in London for £60k, and I was asked 

"is this guy on 'effing' drugs?"

 

Answer? No, just greedy.

 

I saw a bit of kit that isn't that rare, and usually sells for £4k, put on by a twat on a website for £7k,

and when it didn't sell, put back on for £13k, and,  just I was thinking this type of selling couldn't get more sad,

I read the blurb accompanying this comedy listing, and it contained a made-up "quote" from _me_ about how great this bit of kit was!!!

 

I pressed "Launch".... my God he got a rocket.........how desperate and arrogant.....this type of stuff is rampant.....

......have a look at the classic Ford market as well.....who in their right mind would pay £60k for a Capri????....

[copper123]

1 hour ago, azda said:

I'm still scratching my head where the $10k plus comes from on their price. Do they do a roulette wheel with various numbers on and give it a whirl? Genuinely @AtlasNumismatics enlighten me how you come by your ticket price....Surely the cleaning, imaging and slabbing doesn't cost that much, maybe 100-150 dollars?

Meet the new estate agents - spivy coin dealers.

Think of a price double it add whatever for slabbing and distribution tax

[1949threepence]

14 hours ago, copper123 said:

Meet the new estate agents - spivy coin dealers.

Think of a price double it add whatever for slabbing and distribution tax

what makes it even worse is that they've adulterated the coin itself.

Quote

This coin has been conserved to remove surface residue

 

[Coppers]

21 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Yes, this type of business model is IMO destroying at least some of the market for GB coins, resulted in great profits and chasing true collectors out of the market in droves. Understandable is a slow(er) upward drive in prices but pump and dump methods with log value raise in "value" of coins reflects naked greed that we see now so often in the market.

BTW, I believe the blue color has been imparted to the surface by application of the product "MS 70" which when incompletely washed seems to do this to coin surfaces. I have seen some absolute rubbish about the solvent(s) in it removing overlying toning and revealing supposedly true colors beneath the toning. That IMHO is an absolute load of BS.

VS -- do you recall brouhaha here on the other side of the pond over blue-toned Indian Head cents? 

[Iannich48]

21 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Yes, this type of business model is IMO destroying at least some of the market for GB coins, resulted in great profits and chasing true collectors out of the market in droves. Understandable is a slow(er) upward drive in prices but pump and dump methods with log value raise in "value" of coins reflects naked greed that we see now so often in the market.

BTW, I believe the blue color has been imparted to the surface by application of the product "MS 70" which when incompletely washed seems to do this to coin surfaces. I have seen some absolute rubbish about the solvent(s) in it removing overlying toning and revealing supposedly true colors beneath the toning. That IMHO is an absolute load of BS.

MS70, is that the true grade of the coin in question?

[Paulus]

2 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

MS70, is that the true grade of the coin in question?

In this instance MS 70 is a cleaning product

https://www.amazon.com/MS-70-oz-Coin-Cleaner-Bottle/dp/B000YQBZPE

 

 

[VickySilver]

Oh, yes that was a fight over the IMHO obvious with crazy defense on the part of many for the colour - including "respected" numismatists/dealers (the latter label more appropriate) jumping in on the side of this blue colour being somehow a natural attribute. I have a quite rare farthing that some clown cleaned with it giving a thankfully only mild pale blue sheen that probably can not be removed.