What does this mean

[Mart]

Colon after IMP points at a tooth.

This is in the entry for a 1920 penny in in the 2020 coin book

also 1958 halfpenythicker rim shorter teeth  and for the shillings 1948E 1948S  (England Scotland?)

[Paddy]

Ah, you are running into the limitations of a generic coin book - they don't have the space to cover all the finer details of varieties.

The E and the S on shillings are indeed for England and Scotland. For the George VI ones, the England lion faces left, whereas the Scottish one is facing forward. (I remember which by thinking of the Glasgow handshake... 🙂 ). For QE2 the English has 3 lions, the Scottish one lion. (England football logo should do that.)

For the enormous number of varieties of Pennies, you are best to use this site, maintained by a member here:

https://headsntails14.wordpress.com/

For halfpennies, your best bet is this one, maintained by the same member:

https://halfpennyvarieties.wordpress.com/home/

There are numerous books that go into all the detail - I leave others to advise on those.

[Mart]

Thanks Paddy

 

[terrysoldpennies]

The 1920 entry relates to there being to different obverse dies used that year, freeman obverse 2 with the colon dots after the P in IMP pointing to the gap between the teeth, found on all 1920 pennies except for one known example , which has obverse 3 with the same colons pointing directly to the tooth , which I believe is in the British museum . both obverse 2 and 3 are to be found on 1921 pennies , and obverse 3 on 1922 pennies.

1958 halfpenny . They seem to have been experimenting with the dies at the Mint that year, as differing rim and teeth lengths seem to exist . Below are some differences I have found.

Freeman shows three reverse types , I think there may be four but with marginal differences .

1   Narrowest rim and shortest teeth spliced together with the widest rim and longest teeth and the ship size differences

2   sections of the four different rims together

The tiny differences are not considered important by most collectors so its up to you and your personal opinion.

 

 

[Peckris 2]

3 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

1958 halfpenny . They seem to have been experimenting with the dies at the Mint that year, as differing rim and teeth lengths seem to exist . Below are some differences I have found.

Freeman shows three reverse types , I think there may be four but with marginal differences .

2   sections of the four different rims together

The tiny differences are not considered important by most collectors so its up to you and your personal opinion.

Ditto the supposed 4 (or more?) separate varieties of the 1957 'calm sea' halfpenny, which mostly seem to concern the tail length of the 7 and its precise pointing. Most of us probably couldn't care less! Just knowing you have a high grade calm sea is enough for most of us I'd guess.

[blakeyboy]

Agreed, Peck.

Earlier in the year I went though by 1957 calm sea 1/2ds and put some on Fleabay with the different 7's, and no interest whatsoever!

I remember, as a child, a Mars Bar going from 2d to 3d, thus acquiring the extra dimension of depth......:)

[1949threepence]

3 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

The 1920 entry relates to there being to different obverse dies used that year, freeman obverse 2 with the colon dots after the P in IMP pointing to the gap between the teeth, found on all 1920 pennies except for one known example , which has obverse 3 with the same colons pointing directly to the tooth , which I believe is in the British museum . both obverse 2 and 3 are to be found on 1921 pennies , and obverse 3 on 1922 pennies.

 

That's interesting Terry. Freeman had the F189 down as R19 (2 to 5 specimens extant). Also, the poster @Gary D  had one in his collection, which was later sold, almost in its entirety by Colin Cooke to a single buyer.

The link to Gary's 189 is here. 

 I often wondered if it was just a joke on Gary's part to make it look as though he owned one, especially as the obverse and reverse look somewhat different to each other. But he's not been on here for a long time, so I've never had a chance to ask him.

[PWA 1967]

12 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

That's interesting Terry. Freeman had the F189 down as R19 (2 to 5 specimens extant). Also, the poster @Gary D  had one in his collection, which was later sold, almost in its entirety by Colin Cooke to a single buyer.

The link to Gary's 189 is here. 

 I often wondered if it was just a joke on Gary's part to make it look as though he owned one, especially as the obverse and reverse look somewhat different to each other. But he's not been on here for a long time, so I've never had a chance to ask him.

The clue to Garys is the rim on the Obverse 😃

Edited December 2, 2020 by PWA 1967

[1949threepence]

4 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The clue to Garys is the rim on the Obverse 😃

Yes I did spot the rim nick Pete, but it was impossible to determine how far it extended. Many aren't visible on the other side. 

I'm assuming you have some inside information maybe  - spill. 

[PWA 1967]

45 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes I did spot the rim nick Pete, but it was impossible to determine how far it extended. Many aren't visible on the other side. 

I'm assuming you have some inside information maybe  - spill. 

Have a closer look and you will be able to tell as you can see were the other coin does not join the rim properly.

Its a 1920 penny with the obverse hollowed out and an OBV 3 with the edge taken off  put inside , its 2 coins been put together.

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

That's interesting Terry. Freeman had the F189 down as R19 (2 to 5 specimens extant). Also, the poster @Gary D  had one in his collection, which was later sold, almost in its entirety by Colin Cooke to a single buyer.

The link to Gary's 189 is here. 

 I often wondered if it was just a joke on Gary's part to make it look as though he owned one, especially as the obverse and reverse look somewhat different to each other. But he's not been on here for a long time, so I've never had a chance to ask him.

I just had a look, and it looks very much like the later obverse has been dropped into an altered obverse where the original (older) one has been cut out, in the way that double header coins are created.

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Freeman had the F189 down as R19 (2 to 5 specimens extant).

I think the expectation on Freemans part was that another would turn up , but as far as I know its still a unique example

[1949threepence]

59 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Have a closer look and you will be able to tell as you can see were the other coin does not join the rim properly.

Its a 1920 penny with the obverse hollowed out and an OBV 3 with the edge taken off  put inside , its 2 coins been put together.

 

43 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I just had a look, and it looks very much like the later obverse has been dropped into an altered obverse where the original (older) one has been cut out, in the way that double header coins are created.

Do you think he was fooled by it? Or was he just, as I suspect, playing a joke? 

After all, if he'd just wanted to pretend, he could have taken two completely different coins and put them side by side. 

I wonder who the current owner is? 

  

[Mr T]

On 12/3/2020 at 6:49 AM, 1949threepence said:

That's interesting Terry. Freeman had the F189 down as R19 (2 to 5 specimens extant). Also, the poster @Gary D  had one in his collection, which was later sold, almost in its entirety by Colin Cooke to a single buyer.

In older versions of Freeman the price list said there was one known example in the British Museum - this should probably have been a foot-note as the the price list is omitted in newer editions.

My 2c on Freeman 189: http://www.coincuriosity.com/view/british-pennies-1920-1921.html

[Peckris 2]

15 hours ago, Mr T said:

In older versions of Freeman the price list said there was one known example in the British Museum - this should probably have been a foot-note as the the price list is omitted in newer editions.

My 2c on Freeman 189: http://www.coincuriosity.com/view/british-pennies-1920-1921.html

I'd not heard that theory before - that the British Museum requested a 1920 penny in 1921 and an example was struck using an Obverse 3 die which was being used at the time. It sounds perfectly feasible. The one potential flaw in it is: why wouldn't the Mint have sent a 1920 penny that they must have had knocking around? Or does the Mint dispose of every unissued strike before they start minting a new date?

Also, does the BM keep an example of every date and every denomination struck? If not, I can't think of a reason for them to have a 1920 penny unless there was something special about it.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Peckris 2

[Mr T]

Probably if an example was to be sent to the British Museum they wouldn't have fished one out of a bag - hopefully they'd send a nice coin.

I'm not sure what their policy is though their collection does seem incomplete. And I don't think the 1920 penny was special (I doubt they'd care about a slightly different denticle arrangement) but I guess there was enough of an interest in coins to keep adding to the collection.