can anyone tell me if this is a proof crown 1887 victoria?

[theoder]

The first two photos are from Auction house:

described as proof

but after receiving it i have doubt, is it really a proof issue or polished one?

from the rim i think it is not a proof coin.

can someone help me?

Thanks!

Edited June 19, 2020 by theoder

[theoder]

another two photos about this coin.

[Sword]

I can't see how that's a proof. The rims are not remotely sharp. There is no frosting to the portrait. The strike is not great. Those hairlines on the obverse would suggest cleaning. I hope you didn't pay very much for it.

However, more experienced members will soon give their opinions.

[theoder]

1 minute ago, Sword said:

I can't see how that's a proof. The rims are not remotely sharp. There is no frosting to the portrait. The strike is not great. Those hairlines on the obverse would suggest cleaning. I hope you didn't pay very much for it.

However, more experienced members will soon give their opinions.

Thank you very much for your opinion.

I didn't pay much for it.

only about 100 Pounds, but still too much for that i think.

[Diaconis]

I agree with Sword

When compared to the example on the RCT site it does look poor.

https://www.rct.uk/collection/443347/victoria-proof-jubilee-head-crown

[Sword]

9 minutes ago, theoder said:

Thank you very much for your opinion.

I didn't pay much for it.

only about 100 Pounds, but still too much for that i think.

That's a relief at least. A proof, even in this grade will worth several times that.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Sword

[theoder]

so it might be cleaned and retoned?

[Sword]

Those hairlines (particularly behind the veil) would suggest cleaning or at least wiped by something inappropriate. But not too bad. I don't like the rim by the horse's tail either.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Sword

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, theoder said:

The first two photos are from Auction house:

described as proof

but after receiving it i have doubt, is it really a proof issue or polished one?

from the rim i think it is not a proof coin.

can someone help me?

Thanks!

I'd vote "not a proof".

[JLS]

A good diagnostic for a proof of this issue is whether St. George's belt is sharp all the way across his chest. It's very rare to see a currency piece with this feature as they generally were not well struck enough. 

[1887jubilee]

1 hour ago, JLS said:

A good diagnostic for a proof of this issue is whether St. George's belt is sharp all the way across his chest. It's very rare to see a currency piece with this feature as they generally were not well struck enough. 

Another test is to measure the distance from the top of the R in REG to the top of the T in VICTORIA. This is done with vernier callipers (for more reliable results take an average of 10 readings). Most of the proofs measure 33.6mm Other coins vary a good deal up to 34.6mm. This was a test introduced to me by Peter Davies of British Silver Coins. And no it is not a proof though the tone is rather pleasing on the obv.

[1949threepence]

12 hours ago, theoder said:

The first two photos are from Auction house:

described as proof

but after receiving it i have doubt, is it really a proof issue or polished one?

from the rim i think it is not a proof coin.

can someone help me?

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

If you bought expecting a proof, then I think you've been had. 

It's not even attractive, and the obverse looks as though someone's been at it with a brillo pad.

Better luck next time. 

[Weaver]

I'm a fair newbie like yourself theoder, and the biggest lesson I have learned from key members of this community is this...

Always check the coin for fine hairlines in your hand preferably, but if you can't personally look at the coin in hand, then ask for close up photos of the obv and rev.

Fine hairline scratches across the surface (usually in the same direction) suggest that a coin has been cleaned or polished at some point.

A cleaned or polished coin is less desirable to collectors, so the value is much less.

Just something to bear in mind for the future my friend ok?

All the best,

Weaver (wayne)

[Colin88]

Not a proof , not a nice coin especially for £100.. return the coin and get your money back 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

What @Colin88 said. I wouldn't keep that for £100.

 

 

[Michael-Roo]

I agree. Return it.

NEF currency with nasty hairlines on the obverse.

[Rob]

Which auction house are we talking about?

[copper123]

reverse looks good but obverse is plain nasty

[Sword]

14 hours ago, Michael-Roo said:

I agree. Return it.

NEF currency with nasty hairlines on the obverse.

I think it is unlikely that the coin is returnable. It was obviously not brought from a specialist coins auction as the coin would not have been described as a proof in such houses. Non- specialist auctions often have clauses that their descriptions are only opinions and cannot be relied upon as statements of fact. 

If it is returnable, then I would return it. Otherwise, it is not an expensive mistake and can be put down as experience. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Sword

[theoder]

On 6/27/2020 at 12:53 AM, Rob said:

Which auction house are we talking about?

Hello, it's Schulman in Amsterdam.

[Rob]

1 hour ago, theoder said:

Hello, it's Schulman in Amsterdam.

They should know what they are cataloguing given the length of time they have been in the business. However, I think you might fall foul of their rule 6 since more than 8 days have passed since you received the coin. A mis-described item would override any grading issues and one would hope is covered by the general conditions for purchase at auction sales referred to in item 7, but I have no idea what the wording is.

If you compare the images of a couple of proof crowns on the London Coins archive, the rims are infinitely better than what you have there. IMO, the images of the obverse look like the surface has been polished. The reverse is less clear cut, but the rims are still wrong. They should be crisp, flat and squared off. Any edge milling should be relatively sharp to the touch compared to a currency coin. Compare yours with the rims on the two coins sold in sale 167 http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1887+Proof+Crown&searchtype=1

CONDITIONS OF SALE1The auction sale is by upward bidding to the highest bidder against cash payment in EURO with a premium of 20 % of the hammer price.2The auctioneer is entitled to waive payment in cash and to supply the merchandise against invoice. Invoices are to be paid within 15 days. The cost of postage, insurance and bankcharges will be charged to the buyer. An interest of 1 % per month or part of month will be charged if payment of the purchase price including the premium, tax and any cost is not received within the stipulated period.3Title remains with the seller until goods have been paid for in full. The risk is for the buyer from the moment of knock-down.4The auctioneer guarantees on behalf of the consignor the genuineness of all items sold, unless otherwise stated.5Grading is made to the best of our knowledge based on our long experience but is to be considered as the personal opinion of the cataloguer only. All lots will be sold ‘as is’. Difference of grading by grading institutions does not give grounds for the returning lots bought.6Justified complaints can only be considered within 8 days from receipt of the goods.7Unless otherwise stated the general conditions for purchase at auction sales, as deposited at the Court in Amsterdam under number 388/1989, are in force. Should any legal action arise, the Court of Amsterdam has exclusive jurisdiction for both parties. Only the Dutch text of the conditions of sale has legal forc

 

[theoder]

10 hours ago, Rob said:

They should know what they are cataloguing given the length of time they have been in the business. However, I think you might fall foul of their rule 6 since more than 8 days have passed since you received the coin. A mis-described item would override any grading issues and one would hope is covered by the general conditions for purchase at auction sales referred to in item 7, but I have no idea what the wording is.

If you compare the images of a couple of proof crowns on the London Coins archive, the rims are infinitely better than what you have there. IMO, the images of the obverse look like the surface has been polished. The reverse is less clear cut, but the rims are still wrong. They should be crisp, flat and squared off. Any edge milling should be relatively sharp to the touch compared to a currency coin. Compare yours with the rims on the two coins sold in sale 167 http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1887+Proof+Crown&searchtype=1

CONDITIONS OF SALE1The auction sale is by upward bidding to the highest bidder against cash payment in EURO with a premium of 20 % of the hammer price.2The auctioneer is entitled to waive payment in cash and to supply the merchandise against invoice. Invoices are to be paid within 15 days. The cost of postage, insurance and bankcharges will be charged to the buyer. An interest of 1 % per month or part of month will be charged if payment of the purchase price including the premium, tax and any cost is not received within the stipulated period.3Title remains with the seller until goods have been paid for in full. The risk is for the buyer from the moment of knock-down.4The auctioneer guarantees on behalf of the consignor the genuineness of all items sold, unless otherwise stated.5Grading is made to the best of our knowledge based on our long experience but is to be considered as the personal opinion of the cataloguer only. All lots will be sold ‘as is’. Difference of grading by grading institutions does not give grounds for the returning lots bought.6Justified complaints can only be considered within 8 days from receipt of the goods.7Unless otherwise stated the general conditions for purchase at auction sales, as deposited at the Court in Amsterdam under number 388/1989, are in force. Should any legal action arise, the Court of Amsterdam has exclusive jurisdiction for both parties. Only the Dutch text of the conditions of sale has legal forc

 

 

Hello rob, Thank you very much for the explanation, i don't think i can and will return it, anyway only about 100 Pounds, not big deal.

also lessons learned from this, will not attend Auction from this auction house, it was the first and last time.

the photos by Auction house are modified with PS probably, and description are not reliable.

It is not easy to get a good coin with only two pictures, which are even not real.