1860 F13 without Ship Flag

[hazelman]

http://

Edited December 18, 2019 by hazelman
unable to see pic

[hazelman]

i did not move the image for some reason i cant sign onto photobucket

 

[Paddy]

You are much better to upload the image direct here - as long as it/they total to less than 500Kb. (There are numerous applications to cut your image size down if they are too big - I use Photoscape.)

Even if you succeed in uploading a Photobucket link, it is not permanent as any change in Photobucket or your account with them will break the link.

[blakeyboy]

I take my pictures and email them to me.

There is the option for what file size you want before you send, so you know it's below 500k.

it's not really accurate- what size you think you send is not exactly same size when you receive it!!

This does work really well, without any extra program or skill set.

[1949threepence]

23 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I take my pictures and email them to me.

There is the option for what file size you want before you send, so you know it's below 500k.

it's not really accurate- what size you think you send is not exactly same size when you receive it!!

This does work really well, without any extra program or skill set.

That's what I do - then save them in my pics, and upload to this site on a post. 

[Peckris 2]

Photobucket is the site from hell. I wouldn't use them with the proverbial 9 foot barge pole.

[hazelman]

Gents thanks for all the support I wish I had spoken to you all prior to renewing my photobucket subscription for another year. I will be taking Paddy's advice.  Hopefully this evening I will be able to post again.

 

[hazelman]

Not a great pic - but finally am able to post. My questions are Has anyone had one like this before? would it be considered a variety?

[terrysoldpennies]

I have one of this type [pic. below], its the same as yours a  3+d  F13 but it must have been made before yours as part of the flag is still visible as a short horizontal line , yours has had more time for the die to clog up and the flag to almost disappear completely . it also has the stick like line running down from Britanniars hand, caused I think by a die clash .  I've seen quite a few of these, and I wouldn't think them to be highly sought after and of any great value.

[jelida]

It is interesting, a clogged die as Terry says,  not of great extra value but I would keep one in my collection if I found one.

Jerry

[terrysoldpennies]

 I hadn't noticed before but Interestingly the ghostly outline of Victoria's face can be seen on the right side of the coin.

[hazelman]

9 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I have one of this type [pic. below], its the same as yours a  3+d  F13 but it must have been made before yours as part of the flag is still visible as a short horizontal line , yours has had more time for the die to clog up and the flag to almost disappear completely . it also has the stick like line running down from Britanniars hand, caused I think by a die clash .  I've seen quite a few of these, and I wouldn't think them to be highly sought after and of any great value.

Die clash is what id thought and can see the stick - Im just wondering why it hasnt been designated an official variety? Monetary value - as a die clash i didnt expect a premium. I just love the coin - was going to make a political comment but in the current climate thought best not to.

 

[1949threepence]

On 12/18/2019 at 8:16 PM, Paddy said:

You are much better to upload the image direct here - as long as it/they total to less than 500Kb. (There are numerous applications to cut your image size down if they are too big - I use Photoscape.)

Even if you succeed in uploading a Photobucket link, it is not permanent as any change in Photobucket or your account with them will break the link.

Plus it's got "photobucket" scrawled across often meaningful parts of the photo.

 

[Peckris 2]

5 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

 I hadn't noticed before but Interestingly the ghostly outline of Victoria's face can be seen on the right side of the coin.

I'm not sure. I think it's a lion. Or possibly a lamb..

[JLS]

8 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

 I hadn't noticed before but Interestingly the ghostly outline of Victoria's face can be seen on the right side of the coin.

Is the die axis correct on your piece, Terry ? Because it wasn't when the dies clashed !

[terrysoldpennies]

What a good question, I hadn't thought to look . It has about a 15deg rotation anticlockwise , that would account for the position of the stick on the left and her face on the right being so far off the normally position of die clash marks.

[JLS]

2 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

What a good question, I hadn't thought to look . It has about a 15deg rotation anticlockwise , that would account for the position of the stick on the left and her face on the right being so far off the normally position of die clash marks.

Not surprised really - typical sloppy workmanship on the 1860 pieces ! 

I wonder if any pieces with this die pairing exist after the clash with the correct die orientation or whether they scrapped the dies...

[Peckris 2]

On 12/22/2019 at 9:27 PM, JLS said:

Not surprised really - typical sloppy workmanship on the 1860 pieces ! 

I wonder if any pieces with this die pairing exist after the clash with the correct die orientation or whether they scrapped the dies...

Good question. They were so far behind when they struck 1860 bronze my guess is that they might have "not noticed". Only a guess mind.

[JLS]

On 12/23/2019 at 11:54 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Good question. They were so far behind when they struck 1860 bronze my guess is that they might have "not noticed". Only a guess mind.

There is a general sense that quality control was low down the mint's priority. Rotated dies would have been the least concern when they were sending things like this into circulation:

[azda]

7 hours ago, JLS said:

There is a general sense that quality control was low down the mint's priority. Rotated dies would have been the least concern when they were sending things like this into circulation:

Fast forward 159 years and quality control is still not on their priority list 🥳

[Peckris 2]

22 hours ago, JLS said:

There is a general sense that quality control was low down the mint's priority. Rotated dies would have been the least concern when they were sending things like this into circulation:

That may well be true. However, it's a fact that the changeover to bronze was delayed by the many difficulties the Mint encountered, so the 1860 output WAS rushed and may account for many of the strange features to be seen.

[Rob]

Lamination of the thinner flans appeared to be an issue with the new bronze coins as many of the decimal patterns struck between 1857 and 1859 suffered from this. Whether it was due to sheet preparation, metal mix, force applied when struck, or something else - I'm not certain, but I'm sure that was one reason for the delay in production.

As for the rotation in die axis, this is often seen on all things produced using the Soho apparatus; both at Soho on the George III coppers, and on Tower mint products which used Soho presses from 1816 to 1882. Without knowing the full mechanical operation of the equipment, I can only guess at whether it is due to inadequate clamping of a die, misalignment of the clamped dies, wear to a die locating socket, general slack overall tolerances, or something else.

[hazelman]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:49 PM, Rob said:

Lamination of the thinner flans appeared to be an issue with the new bronze coins as many of the decimal patterns struck between 1857 and 1859 suffered from this. Whether it was due to sheet preparation, metal mix, force applied when struck, or something else - I'm not certain, but I'm sure that was one reason for the delay in production.

As for the rotation in die axis, this is often seen on all things produced using the Soho apparatus; both at Soho on the George III coppers, and on Tower mint products which used Soho presses from 1816 to 1882. Without knowing the full mechanical operation of the equipment, I can only guess at whether it is due to inadequate clamping of a die, misalignment of the clamped dies, wear to a die locating socket, general slack overall tolerances, or something else.

Ive learnt something today that I always wondered about - that is if I understood you correctly. When you speak of lamination does that mean that there were two separate layers of metal?

[1949threepence]

On 12/25/2019 at 10:11 PM, Peckris 2 said:

That may well be true. However, it's a fact that the changeover to bronze was delayed by the many difficulties the Mint encountered, so the 1860 output WAS rushed and may account for many of the strange features to be seen.

Especially at the James Watt factory. They were way behind contract and the RM was forced to sub contract some limited work to the Heaton mint. Maybe they should have used them from the start as they were much more efficient.

[Rob]

3 hours ago, hazelman said:

Ive learnt something today that I always wondered about - that is if I understood you correctly. When you speak of lamination does that mean that there were two separate layers of metal?

The sheets are rolled to reduce them to the correct thickness, but whether it is from creating a void through folding material into the sheet, or rolling at the wrong temperature, I'm not certain, but it can lead to layering within the sheet from which the blanks are cut. When the blank is struck it then starts to break apart.

e.g. A brass 3d which clearly had a void contained within the blank, which subsequently fell apart because it was only held together at the extremities, as defined by the toning. And the edge of the F689A pattern halfpenny showing lamination along the edge. The same thing is seen on other decimal patterns, but is notably prevalent on flans that were thinner than the old copper ones, which is why the issue may have been with force used to strike the coins and or metal composition. So many variables.