Halfpenny ID check

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

 

A Brief History (and Explanation) of the Coin Grading Scale

 

When you were going to school and received a grade of 70, that was barely passing.  But when a coin receives a grade of 70 from PCGS, NGC, etc. that means it is absolutely perfect. How come?

We have Dr. William Herbert Sheldon, Jr. (1898 - 1977) to blame for that. In 1948, Dr. Sheldon published “Early American Cents” which contained a novel numerical equivalency system for grades, upon which one could supposedly determine the monetary worth of the coins.

In developing his system, Dr. Sheldon was attempting to find multipliers of a base value for each grade, with a coin in “Poor” condition assigned a base value of “1.” Thus a coin in Fair condition was assigned a multiplying value of 2, and was therefore thought to be worth twice the value of a coin in Poor condition. Similarly, Sheldon decided that a Fine coin was worth 12 times the value of a Poor example, and so on up to a perfect Mint State specimen, which Sheldon decided was worth 70 times the value of the same coin in Poor quality. So, actually, the Sheldon numbers were not meant to define the quality of coins—but rather to indicate the dollar-value in various grades. 

Using the original Sheldon system, if a particular year and variety of a Large Cent had a retail value of $50 in Poor quality, it should be worth $600 in Fine or $3,500 in perfect MS-70.

 

 

Above from Coin World: A Brief History (and Explanation) of the Coin Grading Scale

 

also interesting:

Sheldon coin grading scale - Wikipedia

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

In developing his system, Dr. Sheldon was attempting to find multipliers of a base value for each grade, with a coin in “Poor” condition assigned a base value of “1.” Thus a coin in Fair condition was assigned a multiplying value of 2, and was therefore thought to be worth twice the value of a coin in Poor condition. Similarly, Sheldon decided that a Fine coin was worth 12 times the value of a Poor example, and so on up to a perfect Mint State specimen, which Sheldon decided was worth 70 times the value of the same coin in Poor quality. So, actually, the Sheldon numbers were not meant to define the quality of coins—but rather to indicate the dollar-value in various grades. 

Interesting that he started from the bottom and worked up. It would have been a similar system but with different numbers, if instead of starting with Poor = 1, he'd started with Mint State = 100 (for the finest FDC example - an 'ordinary' Unc coin might have merited 90) and then so on down, reaching Poor = 2 for example, or 1.5 even. Which I believe is what the LCGS system instituted over here, at least for a while?

[1949threepence]

Useful link to grading comparisons - link

You have to scroll down a fair bit to get to the most useful one - "Comparing Grades: UK vs. CGS vs. Sheldon"

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by 1949threepence

[Diaconis]

2 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

the Sheldon numbers were not meant to define the quality of coins—but rather to indicate the dollar-value in various grades. 

Maybe Sheldon’s motivation to create the system was pecuniary but the system is meant (intended) to define the quality of the coins”.

 

[Mr T]

I ended up getting a response from Iain Dracott - C1 is C# and J1 is J#, and 1880 has the following die pairings: 15+O, 15+O#, 15# +O, 15#+O#

[Mr T]

Although I think he means 1881 as 1880 is P and P*.

[Peckris 2]

22 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Useful link to grading comparisons - link

You have to scroll down a fair bit to get to the most useful one - "Comparing Grades: UK vs. CGS vs. Sheldon"

Presumably any coin that is Poor (by the UK grading) doesn't get a number, i.e. 1 is a not very good Fair but better than Poor?

[1949threepence]

7 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Presumably any coin that is Poor (by the UK grading) doesn't get a number, i.e. 1 is a not very good Fair but better than Poor?

It certainly looks that way, yes. 

Not 100% clear, but that's the logical assumption. 

[Zo Arms]

On 12/9/2021 at 3:46 PM, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

That looks like an F-322a.

Uneven berries...

See attached image

Thanks for the confirmation. I would like to say that I spotted it myself but I was pointed in the right direction by a forum member, to whom I owe many thanks.

I was going to suggest that it may be greedy for you to have 2 examples, when this one popped it's head up.

Neither as good looking as yours but another to the known list?

[Zo Arms]

Evening All.

I'm having trouble with this one. Can't make up my mind whether G or I. Dracott's  N pointings aren't helping. Neither are London coins photos of 310, 311.

If I had to commit, I'd say G.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Zo Arms
Additional text

[Martinminerva]

Definitely reverse G.

Easiest way to spot is the sea meeting rock level at the extreme left of the exergue. On Rev. G it rises up slightly and does not cross the linear circle. On Rev. I it is pretty much level and does cross the linear circle. See enlargements below...

Edited January 10, 2022 by Martinminerva

[Zo Arms]

35 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Definitely reverse G.

Easiest way to spot is the sea meeting rock level at the extreme left of the exergue. On Rev. G it rises up slightly and does not cross the linear circle. On Rev. I it is pretty much level and does cross the linear circle. See enlargements below...

Thanks Martin.

Very helpful photo of the sea crossing the circle. And an F style lighthouse too. Is the hair to shoulder detail the same as an F?

I've just rechecked the London coins photos and all bar 1 appear to have a G style sea detail. To my eyes anyway.

[Martinminerva]

I cannot easily make any judgements or spot any distinctive differences about the hair to shoulder for the two reverses - I'll leave that to you with two more photos, reverse G first, then I. The sea/rock line is the diagnostic for me. But you're right that reverse I is considerably rarer and quite an underestimated scarcity in my opinion.

Happy to help!

 

PS another diagnostic is that both arms of the H of Half point to spaces on Rev G and beads on Rev I...

Edited January 10, 2022 by Martinminerva

[Zo Arms]

I'd class that as F style hair. It's thicker and extends down slightly further, to cover more of her bra strap.😀

And I do appreciate a legend pointing. On most of my coins there seems to be very little Britannia left.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Zo Arms
Spelling

[secret santa]

Reverse G by number of teeth

[mrbadexample]

Trident shaft is noticeably thicker on G too.

[Zo Arms]

Really useful identifiers. Thank you all.

Here's a couple of maybe wishful thinking. 

1862. B over R.  And an 1860 HAIF.   Rev B, but paired with a 4, not a 2.

[Zo Arms]

[Zo Arms]

1860 rev 4.

[jelida]

From the photo, I would be happy with the B/R, the leg of the R shows both within and outside the lower loop of the B. I have the 1861 version (F282 variety). Well done!

Jerry

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, jelida said:

From the photo, I would be happy with the B/R, the leg of the R shows both within and outside the lower loop of the B. I have the 1861 version (F282 variety).

Could you post the pic or refer me to a link so that I can add it to my varieties site please Jerry.

[Zo Arms]

1 hour ago, jelida said:

From the photo, I would be happy with the B/R, the leg of the R shows both within and outside the lower loop of the B. I have the 1861 version (F282 variety). Well done!

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. Appreciate the confirmation. 

How's your halfpenny collection coming along?

[mrbadexample]

12 hours ago, Zo Arms said:

1862. B over R. 

 

I like it! 

[jelida]

4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Could you post the pic or refer me to a link so that I can add it to my varieties site please Jerry.

Oops, silly me, it’s the R over B in BRITT halfpenny that I have, which you have pics of. It’s my three 1862 B/R pennies that look identical to this B/R halfpenny overstrike. The abnormal shape of the inner loop of the B is a clear giveaway, even on worn coins.

The halfpenny collection is coming along nicely, thanks to LCA and EBay. My best so far is the (pricey) 1862 die letter C with good lustre, from a continental auction a few months ago. I must take pics.

Jerry

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

For comparison 2 different obverse 2 HAIF pennies.

First specimen is an earlier die state with the end of the leg of the L showing (ie:  HAI.F)

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Bronze & Copper Collector