Halfpenny ID check

[mrbadexample]

Hi all,

As I struggle to get to grips with bronze halfpennies, I'd be grateful if someone could check my guesses please.

F282?

Thanks, 

Jon

[mrbadexample]

F321?

[DrLarry]

Yes I also struggle with them I seem to have pages and pages of 61's and so many have legend errors or overprints but also I cannot for the life of me get my head around the 61 and the 62 half penny dies ...

 

I seem to have three main types of 1861 ..one with the pointy lighthouse..the "pointy Mclighthouse" type.  The round lighthouse  Non pointy McLighthouse with the LCW,  The Non pointy without the LCW (not sure) and then this strange character that has a very different lighthouse a nicer "not quite so pointy with nice glass on the light Mc lighthouse"   (which I think is rare) there seems to be a 62 with the same Type ...oh and I forgot the door 

 

I cannot remember but we were discussing the 62 and there seemed to be one that was without a rock on the left of the lighthouse I had two or three of them so they cannot be rare . Mostly with pointy Mclighthouses 

Edited August 21, 2018 by DrLarry

[Paddy]

As you know I am relatively new to this variety business, but for what it's worth I think I agree on both those.

F282 is Dies 7+G. Obverse 7 has the fourth leaf in the third lot down, which yours has. Reverse G has the door on the lighthouse, which yours does.

F321 is dies 11+J. Reverse - it can only be J or L and L has the H of Halfpenny much closer to the lighthouse. With reverse J it can only be obverse 11 or 13, and the rose is too indistinct (I think) to be 13. Most of the other distinguishing features are worn away so only a best guess.

... but feel free to correct me!

[DrLarry]

40 minutes ago, Paddy said:

As you know I am relatively new to this variety business, but for what it's worth I think I agree on both those.

F282 is Dies 7+G. Obverse 7 has the fourth leaf in the third lot down, which yours has. Reverse G has the door on the lighthouse, which yours does.

F321 is dies 11+J. Reverse - it can only be J or L and L has the H of Halfpenny much closer to the lighthouse. With reverse J it can only be obverse 11 or 13, and the rose is too indistinct (I think) to be 13. Most of the other distinguishing features are worn away so only a best guess.

... but feel free to correct me!

that's is a much more sensible approach Paddy 

[mrbadexample]

2 hours ago, Paddy said:

As you know I am relatively new to this variety business, but for what it's worth I think I agree on both those.

F282 is Dies 7+G. Obverse 7 has the fourth leaf in the third lot down, which yours has. Reverse G has the door on the lighthouse, which yours does.

F321 is dies 11+J. Reverse - it can only be J or L and L has the H of Halfpenny much closer to the lighthouse. With reverse J it can only be obverse 11 or 13, and the rose is too indistinct (I think) to be 13. Most of the other distinguishing features are worn away so only a best guess.

... but feel free to correct me!

Pretty much the same way I approached it Paddy.

The 1875 was easier as much less choice, obviously. I eliminated reverse L as you did, and obverse 11 has the kink in the forehead from the hairline, level with the lower colon dot after D:

The 1861 is a bit of a nightmare, especially with a worn coin. The one pictured is from ebay which I chose as a mid grade starting point. Again, the fourth leaf and lighthouse were the keys for me too.

How about this one? Think obverse 7 again, but struggling with the reverse. F, for F279? 

[Paddy]

I can't see it as reverse F - the hair on Britannia's neck is too small and not forming a line towards the shoulder. The ship is too well struck for a D, so we are left with E or G. Either the LCW is worn off and it is E (can I see a ghost of the W over the 6?) or it is a G and the door is what has worn off...

 

[Bernie]

Another obverse 7 with reverse G

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

28 minutes ago, Bernie said:

Another obverse 7 with reverse G

I concur...   f-282

 

[mrbadexample]

Thanks all. 

I've been using Richard's site (https://headsntails14.wordpress.com) for pennies, and one thing I notice is that he makes good use of letter and colon pointings to gaps / teeth etc. This can be really helpful with worn specimens. Freeman doesn't seem to note these very often. 

I am frequently impressed by our penny collectors' ability to identify washers. Somehow I suspect halfpennies are a lot more difficult. 

 

 

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

Thanks all. 

I've been using Richard's site (https://headsntails14.wordpress.com) for pennies, and one thing I notice is that he makes good use of letter and colon pointings to gaps / teeth etc. This can be really helpful with worn specimens. Freeman doesn't seem to note these very often. 

I am frequently impressed by our penny collectors' ability to identify washers. Somehow I suspect halfpennies are a lot more difficult. 

 

 

 

An excellent reference for halfpennies is Iain Dracott's article on Victorian bronze halfpennies as well as Malcolm Lewendon's cd with images based upon the Dracott article....

 

[mrbadexample]

3 minutes ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

An excellent reference for halfpennies is Iain Dracott's article on Victorian bronze halfpennies as well as Malcolm Lewendon's cd with images based upon the Dracott article....

 

...which you could obtain from... 

Please. 

[Mr T]

12 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

...which you could obtain from... 

Please. 

A .pdf of Iain Dracott's articles was posted somewhere on this forum a little while ago I think.

[mrbadexample]

Ok....Gary has kindly provided me with a copy of the applicable articles. Working my way through, I'm not 100% convinced that the first and last images are both F282. 

Looking at the differences in the rocks by the lighthouse, I think these may be different reverses:

Any thoughts?

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

Ok....Gary has kindly provided me with a copy of the applicable articles. Working my way through, I'm not 100% convinced that the first and last images are both F282. 

Looking at the differences in the rocks by the lighthouse, I think these may be different reverses:

Any thoughts?

Can't tell for sure, but depending upon the date, I would suspect that they are 2 variants of the same reverse. ..  G

 

Read note 4 regarding reverse G in the article. .  Some reverse G's are missing rocks to the left of the lighthouse, mainly from 1861 to 1863.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[mrbadexample]

Sorry, should have made myself more clear - these are the two F282s posted on this thread. I'll have another look at the article when I've a bit more time.

 

 

[Paddy]

Any chance I could have a copy of the Dracott article too? I have tried searching through old posts on the forum and Dracott is mentioned all over the place but the downloads seem to have been tidied away. 

Cheers

[DrLarry]

relatively speaking how rare is the round lighthouse type of 1861 without the LCW.  It is just I have an awful lot of them but rarely have I come across it, 2 I think out of the maybe 100-150 I must have.  Why is it that we assume that the LCW is the "touched up version of the round lighthouse type?  In my collection of 1861 I find that I have maybe 8  LCW's REV's.

The lettering on the reverse with the LCW seems to be larger and the inner circle is further away from the teeth on a couple of non LCW's rounded Highthouse the 1 is overstamped on a much smaller number with the serif well into the inner circle.

 

[DrLarry]

On the topic of half pennies I have an 1860 half penny in which the C appears to have been over stamped on a G there is a removed section which corresponds to the shape and form of the G and a large piece of metal remains riding on to pf the C of VICTORIA .  Do you think there is a chance that a C over a G exists out there somewhere ? 

It seems often the case that we miss these somewhat until we become aware of them, for example it was not until the new edition of the freeman book came out that I discovered the three stages of removal of the B over R in BRITT in the 1862 half penny, one which eventually leads to a flaw which runs all the way from the tail of the R o the back of the bun .  My camera is not working too well on my phone so it is more difficult for me to take pictures. 

[Peckris 2]

Nevertheless a picture of your putative C over G would be essential for us to comment.

[jelida]

15 hours ago, DrLarry said:

relatively speaking how rare is the round lighthouse type of 1861 without the LCW.  It is just I have an awful lot of them but rarely have I come across it, 2 I think out of the maybe 100-150 I must have.  Why is it that we assume that the LCW is the "touched up version of the round lighthouse type?  In my collection of 1861 I find that I have maybe 8  LCW's REV's.

The lettering on the reverse with the LCW seems to be larger and the inner circle is further away from the teeth on a couple of non LCW's rounded Highthouse the 1 is overstamped on a much smaller number with the serif well into the inner circle.

 

The rounded top lighthouse coins are rare, I think you have done well to find 1-2 per cent of your 1861’s with this reverse. It is possible  that a new master die was made up rather than an existing die modified, though at what stage in the process the Britannia/lighthouse/rock were changed I have no idea, whether an existing punch was altered or a new punch made from scratch. As there are no 1860 reverse F we can I think safely assume that the reverse D came first and if an existing die was modified this would seem the most likely candidate.

Jerry

[DrLarry]

17 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Nevertheless a picture of your putative C over G would be essential for us to comment.

yes I note the putative nature of the error and will try get something for you I just suggest something might be happening with it and wondered if anyone may have seen the error or repunch too. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

4 hours ago, jelida said:

The rounded top lighthouse coins are rare, I think you have done well to find 1-2 per cent of your 1861’s with this reverse. It is possible  that a new master die was made up rather than an existing die modified, though at what stage in the process the Britannia/lighthouse/rock were changed I have no idea, whether an existing punch was altered or a new punch made from scratch. As there are no 1860 reverse F we can I think safely assume that the reverse D came first and if an existing die was modified this would seem the most likely candidate.

Jerry

I have set out to find them admittedly, so they are not a randomised collection in the true sense of the word what intrigues me is the variety of 61 reverses, sometimes it seems that they went through rapid expansion and then there is some kind of mass extinction at the end of the 62 boundary 

[DrLarry]

4 hours ago, jelida said:

The rounded top lighthouse coins are rare, I think you have done well to find 1-2 per cent of your 1861’s with this reverse. It is possible  that a new master die was made up rather than an existing die modified, though at what stage in the process the Britannia/lighthouse/rock were changed I have no idea, whether an existing punch was altered or a new punch made from scratch. As there are no 1860 reverse F we can I think safely assume that the reverse D came first and if an existing die was modified this would seem the most likely candidate.

Jerry

I have managed to find another 1879 with the shuttle off the lighthouse this one is much a better grade and I can see the full structure of the metal my previous one was not such a good grade.  But at least it is something now to work on it would be interesting to try solve the reason behind the error 

Edited September 25, 2018 by DrLarry

[Peckris 2]

7 hours ago, DrLarry said:

yes I note the putative nature of the error and will try get something for you I just suggest something might be happening with it and wondered if anyone may have seen the error or repunch too. 

Why do you say C over G ? I'm more inclined to say a repunched C as it appears to be an underlying C.