1911+1912 H Both same rev?

[zookeeperz]

Thumbing through the books and looking through some coins I noticed some characteristics on different dates that share the same reverse specifically the 1911 penny and 1912/12H  much like the obverse 6 penny that has different anomalies this reverse also has some features that just look to me different design . I marked on the pics the differences. I am still working on the obverse but it appears they also have different design aspects. Anyway here's the pics and be interested in your thoughts as always  Oh yes there are some others like the Helmet on the 1912H doesn't have that back section at the bottom but that could just be a strike weakness? and the cross lines on the shield are much thicker

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by zookeeperz

[zookeeperz]

Here are the relevant obverses.  almost forgot. the E in DEI on the 1911 obverse has a longer bottom base the rest of the E's are equal.

Edited June 14, 2018 by zookeeperz

[Peckris]

Some of it COULD be down to die wear, but the angle of the fingers on the trident is telling - that is very noticeable. The real question is, how does a 1912 compare? It's just possible that Heatons were either given slightly different dies to use, or they took on the task of engraving them themselves. If a 1912 is exactly the same as 1911, then it's a Heaton matter, but if the two 1912s are the same, then you've spotted a minor variety.

[jelida]

Interesting....do you have access to the coins? If so, could you take close-up photos of the two hands under identical lighting, 

Jerry

[zookeeperz]

3 hours ago, jelida said:

Interesting....do you have access to the coins? If so, could you take close-up photos of the two hands under identical lighting, 

Jerry

i'll set something up in the morning  .  Here is the 1912

 

[zookeeperz]

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Isn't there a similar variation on the 1911 half penny?

[zookeeperz]

33 minutes ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Isn't there a similar variation on the 1911 half penny?

I don't have  2 good examples to check from . but i'll work on it  

[Peckris]

Interesting. So the two types of 1912 have the same hand, but the 1911 is different. Worth digging deeper.

[DrLarry]

5 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

oh I see is the variation in the second finger? and the knuckle of the thumb? It would be nice to be able to compare two with the same wear .....hey but at least she can hold the trident with some confidence she will not dislocate the shoulder the poor old dear had to cope with in the bun penny.  

[davidrj]

I’ve always thought that there are possibly several minor varieties for 1911/2 pennies, but only the Gouby X has a good marker with bead alignment. There are reports that folk in the 60’s reported variations in flan diameters, there are also normal and raised obverse rims. Whether the differences are die related, or due to flan diameter and/or striking pressure is an open question.

[zookeeperz]

1 hour ago, davidrj said:

I’ve always thought that there are possibly several minor varieties for 1911/2 pennies, but only the Gouby X has a good marker with bead alignment. There are reports that folk in the 60’s reported variations in flan diameters, there are also normal and raised obverse rims. Whether the differences are die related, or due to flan diameter and/or striking pressure is an open question.

yes I noticed on the coins I had different rim sizes one almost had no rim and just teeth some seem to be square cut with a flat surface and others are what looks like wire rims. Also you'll notice the placement of the center trident prong differs in relationship of how close it is to the rim of the coin. this also occurs on other specimens some are virtually touching it.Also i noticed that the lettering style on these 2 coins the bases on one are straight and the other has a gentle concave curve on the feet

Edited June 15, 2018 by zookeeperz

[Peckris]

2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

oh I see is the variation in the second finger? and the knuckle of the thumb? It would be nice to be able to compare two with the same wear .....hey but at least she can hold the trident with some confidence she will not dislocate the shoulder the poor old dear had to cope with in the bun penny.  

More than that - the thumb as well, which is slanted relative more to the trident than the hand on the one, but is a right angle to the trident yet quite bent on the other. The overall effect I would describe as "slanted fingers" and "straight fingers".

7 minutes ago, zookeeperz said:

yes I noticed on the coins I had different rim sizes one almost had no rim and just teeth some seem to be square cut with a flat surface and others are what looks like wire rims. Also you'll notice the placement of the center trident prong differs in relationship of how close it is to the rim of the coin. 

The rims on the early George V pennies and halfpennies have very varied 'presence'. There was intended to be a rim of course, but the shallow reverse design relative to the deep cut portrait makes them almost disappear on some coins. It's purely a striking effect and not any indication of a variety as such.

[Unwilling Numismatist]

So will we eventually see an obverse Z1* and Z2* ?

Keep up the good work Rich !

[jelida]

Richard, the difference is so much more marked in your first two pictures, which are also closer in grade,  what I think we need are close-ups of the first 1911 that you show. The subsequent pictures are certainly less dramatically different, particularly given the wear. I would go for a genuine difference on the first pics,  but am less convinced by the second pair.

Do you have that first 1911 to photo? 

Jerry

 

[Mr T]

13 hours ago, davidrj said:

I’ve always thought that there are possibly several minor varieties for 1911/2 pennies, but only the Gouby X has a good marker with bead alignment. There are reports that folk in the 60’s reported variations in flan diameters, there are also normal and raised obverse rims. Whether the differences are die related, or due to flan diameter and/or striking pressure is an open question.

Australian pennies (struck in London, Birmingham, Sydney and Melbourne) I believe can have slightly different diameters too - effectively the same coin and produced the same way. Possibly a slightly wider collar could cause the metal to spread a little further?

[blakeyboy]

Several years ago Tony Crocker put a 1912H, if memory serves, on Fleabay and it went for a ridiculous amount- many hundreds.

i could not see why, for the life of me, so I phoned him. He was flabbergasted too, and had asked the winning bidder why the bidding had gone so high.

Apparently the guy told him that George 5's nose was different..........

Maybe the details of this have faded a bit, but I definitely remember staring at the Ebay picture in 'Completed Items'

to see if I could see the difference in the nose, but I'm still in the dark.

[PWA 1967]

On 8/8/2018 at 10:26 PM, blakeyboy said:

Several years ago Tony Crocker put a 1912H, if memory serves, on Fleabay and it went for a ridiculous amount- many hundreds.

i could not see why, for the life of me, so I phoned him. He was flabbergasted too, and had asked the winning bidder why the bidding had gone so high.

Apparently the guy told him that George 5's nose was different..........

Maybe the details of this have faded a bit, but I definitely remember staring at the Ebay picture in 'Completed Items'

to see if I could see the difference in the nose, but I'm still in the dark.

It must of stood out as being different for at least two people to bid it so high . 

[Mr T]

Looking back at this, it definitely looks like a new obverse - the bottom bar on the E in DEI is definitely different. What is the difference with the thumb and St Andrew's cross? I can't quite make it out, but it looks like the fingers are diagonal to the trident in one and perpendicular in the other.

Is this meant to be all 1911 are type 1 and all 1912H are type 2? Looking at a few pictures on the PCGS website all the coins I looked at (1911, 1912 and 1912H) all seemed to have the normal E (not the long bottom bar).