Unusual? 1862 Penny -- Is this really a reverse G?

[Generic Lad]

Hey all, so let me start out by saying I'm by no means a bun head penny expert or that bronze coinage is even really in my interests, however I found this on eBay tonight and ended up winning the auction ($12 US, probably overpaid but...). According to my copy of Freeman and from what I can tell online, the only reverse known for the 1862 penny is Freeman G (probably has a different reference for other references) it looks like one of the key die indicators of reverse G is that the sea extends beyond the circle all the way to the border... However, I'm not seeing this in my coin? Since I just won this auction I don't have this in hand this is the best pictures I've been able to get. The pictures don't seem to want to be uploaded here in full so I've made an album on IMGUR here: https://imgur.com/a/UcBshRd

 

Any ideas here?

[jelida]

I’m afraid this is a modern Chinese replica, there are increasing numbers of various dates appearing on EBay, not all correctly described despite the fact they have only been around a couple of years and the vendors must in most cases know their origin.

Jerry

[Paddy]

Yes sadly very much a fake - the look and feel is all wrong even before you start looking at the detail. Do you have a link to the original listing on Ebay? Just so we can identify yet another fraudulent seller.

I suggest you go for your money back, unless it was ridiculously cheap and so one could say you should have realised it was a copy...

 

[Michael-Roo]

 

 If the seller made no reference to it being a modern copy cancel the transaction or have your money refunded through ebay.

[Generic Lad]

Well -- that'd be why I couldn't find it in references

 

Here's the seller in question: https://www.ebay.com/sch/hunt51/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

 

Since I bought the item it looks like he's listed some others -- many are obviously repros

 

Seems weird though that they'd bother faking a common date 1d! But I suppose that explains why I couldn't find a reference to it -- I'll probably keep it and will post the weight and other specs of it and keep it as a reminder that because its not in the standard references -- it might just mean its a fake its already shipped so probably not worth it to bother returning it anyways

 

 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Generic Lad said:

Well -- that'd be why I couldn't find it in references

 

Here's the seller in question: https://www.ebay.com/sch/hunt51/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

 

Since I bought the item it looks like he's listed some others -- many are obviously repros

 

Seems weird though that they'd bother faking a common date 1d! But I suppose that explains why I couldn't find a reference to it -- I'll probably keep it and will post the weight and other specs of it and keep it as a reminder that because its not in the standard references -- it might just mean its a fake its already shipped so probably not worth it to bother returning it anyways

 

 

For the Chinese. Material cost 5c, selling price a few dollars. You don't have to sell too many to recoup the setting up costs. 

For the dodgy dealer. Cost a few dollars, selling price tens of dollars. Seems like a good plan as long as you don't burden yourself with a moral compass.

For many ebay buyers, an outlay of a few tens of dollars will easily be offset by the hundreds of dollars accruing from the sales of said rare items - all old coins are incredibly rare and are valuable. After all, they were missed by Gouby, Peck and Freeman

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Rob

[Michael-Roo]

 

It would appear the seller knows exactly what he has and what he's doing. That 1694 elephant cent for example, if genuine would carry a price tag in the thousands. 

Amazing how many elderly people die leaving a collection of rarities, all of which were minted last Tuesday.

Surely someone should investigate this recent phenomenon whereby people in their twilight years experience an overwhelming compulsion to collect reproductions which can then be passed down to, or left in the loft to be found by, a family member, and preferably one who knows nothing about coins.

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Michael-Roo

[1949threepence]

16 hours ago, Generic Lad said:

Hey all, so let me start out by saying I'm by no means a bun head penny expert or that bronze coinage is even really in my interests, however I found this on eBay tonight and ended up winning the auction ($12 US, probably overpaid but...). According to my copy of Freeman and from what I can tell online, the only reverse known for the 1862 penny is Freeman G (probably has a different reference for other references) it looks like one of the key die indicators of reverse G is that the sea extends beyond the circle all the way to the border... However, I'm not seeing this in my coin? Since I just won this auction I don't have this in hand this is the best pictures I've been able to get. The pictures don't seem to want to be uploaded here in full so I've made an album on IMGUR here: https://imgur.com/a/UcBshRd

 

Any ideas here?

As others have said, a fake, and a very obvious one. When you've looked at thousands of real pennies, the fake ones hit you in the eye immediately. 

The obverse looks more like an obverse 2 than a 6, but that sure ain't no Freeman 38. 

[Paddy]

1 hour ago, Generic Lad said:

Well -- that'd be why I couldn't find it in references

 

Here's the seller in question: https://www.ebay.com/sch/hunt51/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

 

Since I bought the item it looks like he's listed some others -- many are obviously repros

 

Seems weird though that they'd bother faking a common date 1d! But I suppose that explains why I couldn't find a reference to it -- I'll probably keep it and will post the weight and other specs of it and keep it as a reminder that because its not in the standard references -- it might just mean its a fake its already shipped so probably not worth it to bother returning it anyways

 

 

@Generic LadWhilst I appreciate your unwillingness to get involved in an argument with the seller, the problem is that when people who have been conned like you do not take action, you encourage con-men to continue their fraudulent practices and others to emulate them. I encourage you to take action to call him out so he does not defraud anyone else.

 

[DrLarry]

if you go into a website called aliexpress and search for Victoria penny 1862 you will see that they are about $6 each.  so you have only paid twice as much as they cost if you have them sent direct from china.  One of the tell tale ways of telling is the "blue blush" tinge they have.  If it were a real 62 you would see a crispness to the design sharpness, whereas many of the forgeries have a soft "roundedness" to the design elements.  If I were you I would ask for my money back or start an open case :does not seem authentic.  Ebay may likely tell you to keep the offensive creature and give you your money back.  You just have to say you are going to destroy it with trading standards whihc might be the best thing to do.  But as I say they are $6 so you only lost $6 and postage.  Good luck 

[DrLarry]

I have gone into the site and reported all the fake items to ebay sending a report on each one.  I treat it a bit like picking up litter.  I have a pick up three policy.  I report about 3 a week if I find them not listed as replicas.  I have also sent a message to the buyer which ebay will have then on record so when he tries to flog such rubbish again they will have a paper trail.  

[DrLarry]

that is a very "ugly copy" ...is it right that Queen Victoria insisted on one of the obverse to be removed from circulation because of the bulging eyes?.....if so it is lucky the ppor old dear didn't see this one 

[DrLarry]

49 minutes ago, Paddy said:

@Generic LadWhilst I appreciate your unwillingness to get involved in an argument with the seller, the problem is that when people who have been conned like you do not take action, you encourage con-men to continue their fraudulent practices and others to emulate them. I encourage you to take action to call him out so he does not defraud anyone else.

 

I agree it is important for you to report it to ebay dont even begin to going direct to him as soon as it arrives open a case but also you can report each of those others he is selling.  Not one of them is authentic and he knows it perfectly well.....but please for us all and other young collectors out there report them.  These people give each person they sting a bitter taste (mixed metaphor sorry ) and it destroys young collectors from getting started.  Such sellers are parasitical ...can you tell replicas annoy me LOL !!!!!

[DrLarry]

I do not know what coins are fake and what are real. I am only going by what is written on the coin. These came from an older gentlemans collection. I am not out to cheat anyone and I offer a full 14 day return on anything I sell. I will remove them until I can authenticate if they are fake or real   - hunt51   there you go looks like he has closed his coin sale down....only took five minutes LOL one has to give him the benefit of the doubt ....methinks

[DrLarry]

I feel like an activist again (all puffed up !!!) ......surely someone can come up with a MArvel or DC comic type name for a superhero who forces sellers not to sell fake coins .....come on it's todays challenge 

[DrLarry]

how's about    ........INTEGRITY has a nice ring to it ...like the sound of silver on glass not that dull thud of pewter.  

[Peckris]

19 hours ago, Generic Lad said:

Hey all, so let me start out by saying I'm by no means a bun head penny expert or that bronze coinage is even really in my interests, however I found this on eBay tonight and ended up winning the auction ($12 US, probably overpaid but...). According to my copy of Freeman and from what I can tell online, the only reverse known for the 1862 penny is Freeman G (probably has a different reference for other references) it looks like one of the key die indicators of reverse G is that the sea extends beyond the circle all the way to the border... However, I'm not seeing this in my coin? Since I just won this auction I don't have this in hand this is the best pictures I've been able to get. The pictures don't seem to want to be uploaded here in full so I've made an album on IMGUR here: https://imgur.com/a/UcBshRd

I'm afraid it looks like a clear fake to me. 

[DrLarry]

In the discussion I had with the seller he said he accepted returns generic so he will take it back. 

[Generic Lad]

Yep -- got my money back for this and the coins look to be taken down

[zookeeperz]

Well all bar 1 but strangely and directly because of your intervention the sole coin he has for sale mas marked copy on the envelope. (more like they all were until he was sussed) I reported him earlier as well. I think for any novice reading an inro that starts. "handed down,relative died,I am selling for a friend,I know nothing about coins" all of these are red lights alarms to run for the hills and all normally have between 20-90 feedback generated by the ring of scammers they are in. Whilst there may well be a genuine seller as a matter of security for yourself just ignore it and move on. If it sounds too good to be true it 99/100 times is.so.

[DrLarry]

yes and an old tobacco tin .....OLD Holborn it was for me although that does remind me of another littl;e story on coins I shall write up in my series of coin fables...no coin tales perhaps I should call the book Heads or Tales.

 

I'm glad it all sorted itself out.  His discussion with me seemed to suggest some contrition on the subject and he showed some remorse for his mis-selling.  The world is in balance and all is well in Numis Land.  

[DrLarry]

This collection wasnt sold to me. They belonged to my friends father. His father died recently and I was selling them for him. Some are marked copies but most are not. I do not know how to tell a copy from the real thing.   Hunt51 

May he forever rest in peace ...REV G father RIP