Very different grading of 1746 LIMA HC by (L)CGS

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Rob, so eloquently put

[zookeeperz]

Ok chaps Guess the grades  This should be fun

 

[ozjohn]

One piece of vital information required here assuming a TPG is involved. Who was the TPG?

[zookeeperz]

1 hour ago, ozjohn said:

One piece of vital information required here assuming a TPG is involved. Who was the TPG?

i'll tell you after you give your guess on what you think each coin grades at.

[Sword]

On 28/11/2017 at 10:21 PM, zookeeperz said:

Ok chaps Guess the grades  This should be fun

 

For me, they grade as "reject" and "reject". (I now like to employ Rob's method of grading).

But to play your game, I would say the example on the left would  grade (might be significantly) higher than the one on the right. The lack of detail on the left hand side coin is due in large part to weak striking rather than wear.

[zookeeperz]

1 hour ago, Sword said:

For me, they grade as "reject" and "reject". (I now like to employ Rob's method of grading).

But to play your game, I would say the example on the left would  grade (might be significantly) higher than the one on the right. The lack of detail on the left hand side coin is due in large part to weak striking rather than wear.

The coin on the left is unc  and the coin on the right is VF. Both LCA coins. And I am sorry but I fail to see the grades of either. Especially the VF that's just a mickey take. If I sent that coin in and it came back VF I would personally drive down to CGS and ram it down their throats. I suspect as there are 2 of these coins so called UNC are their own raws. As other examples which a much better quality do not even get to GEF

[VickySilver]

My, my, that's strong stuff. I agree with you that they are not so very "clean", and amazed that they deal in coins that they themselves grade. Just too much profit incentive (well, that was a pleasant way of putting it). On the other hand, if you could by the specimen at a VF price then that would be good.

Not to bore, but I have an very rare Vicky halfcrown in my collection that I bought at a Glens sale about 15 years ago that they had as gVF that graded out as MS64. And of course its my coin, but I tend to agree (as I would).

[zookeeperz]

8 hours ago, VickySilver said:

My, my, that's strong stuff. I agree with you that they are not so very "clean", and amazed that they deal in coins that they themselves grade. Just too much profit incentive (well, that was a pleasant way of putting it). On the other hand, if you could by the specimen at a VF price then that would be good.

Not to bore, but I have an very rare Vicky halfcrown in my collection that I bought at a Glens sale about 15 years ago that they had as gVF that graded out as MS64. And of course its my coin, but I tend to agree (as I would).

Which was the point of my slightly ranted post

I have had some unsavoury dealings with them. Your coins are always under graded for the sole reason it makes their higher grades worth more. The conflict of interest is massive. They grade the coins so they know exactly what they own against the market coins. They then auction the coins and bid on them leaving out a lot of descriptions as to what is in the lots. I know from first hand twice they stitched me up. then they sell the coins after grading them. You only need look at coins of similar appearance in their auctions and head scratch how on earth the grade is so far apart. Simple fact is all our raws will be under graded and they will try to purchase them. Whilst the coins of theirs will be given higher grades . I do not think any company should have that much influence over the industry. To be quite frank they have us by the balls and the whole collecting fraternity by the throat.

 

[jaggy]

4 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

Which was the point of my slightly ranted post

I have had some unsavoury dealings with them. Your coins are always under graded for the sole reason it makes their higher grades worth more. The conflict of interest is massive. They grade the coins so they know exactly what they own against the market coins. They then auction the coins and bid on them leaving out a lot of descriptions as to what is in the lots. I know from first hand twice they stitched me up. then they sell the coins after grading them. You only need look at coins of similar appearance in their auctions and head scratch how on earth the grade is so far apart. Simple fact is all our raws will be under graded and they will try to purchase them. Whilst the coins of theirs will be given higher grades . I do not think any company should have that much influence over the industry. To be quite frank they have us by the balls and the whole collecting fraternity by the throat.

 

While I agree with much of your post, I don't think that LCA have as much influence as you think. 

They are far from the only auction house in the UK - there is also DNW, Baldwin & Spink to name but three - and they are not the only grader - there is also NGC & PCGS both of whom are expanding into the UK and Europe. Neither are they the only seller of coins, there are many others. 

That means that we have a choice. We can choose to stay with 'raw' coins or we can choose to go with a grader (LCA, NGC or PCGS). We can choose to buy at LCA or at one of the other auction houses or dealers. And, in auction, a coin is only worth what a bidder is willing to pay. Up to us as collectors to determine what we think the coin is worth and bid accordingly.

[Rob]

18 minutes ago, jaggy said:

While I agree with much of your post, I don't think that LCA have as much influence as you think. 

They are far from the only auction house in the UK - there is also DNW, Baldwin & Spink to name but three - and they are not the only grader - there is also NGC & PCGS both of whom are expanding into the UK and Europe. Neither are they the only seller of coins, there are many others. 

That means that we have a choice. We can choose to stay with 'raw' coins or we can choose to go with a grader (LCA, NGC or PCGS). We can choose to buy at LCA or at one of the other auction houses or dealers. And, in auction, a coin is only worth what a bidder is willing to pay. Up to us as collectors to determine what we think the coin is worth and bid accordingly.

It was ever the same. No collector will take everything that is offered. Any coin purchases are (hopefully) made after due consideration. Estimates in sales are always taken with a pinch of salt, being priced to either lure in bidders, satisfy the reserve set by the vendor or they are fairly priced, but you have to know what you are doing to decide that. Slab grades get similar treatment, the contents not being a commodity meaning that the grade, price and TPG are all subservient to the knowledge of the collector. As it should be. 

[Peter]

On 7/7/2017 at 1:21 AM, Paulus said:

I often support LCGS when they grade a coin, for their strictness and consistency. However this example seems hard to explain, consistency-wise (well on both counts really):

My CGS 70 (aUNC)

Another CGS 70 for sale on eBay:

LCGS grading is hit and miss