1889 Penny / Die Pairings and Date Widths

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Really good post.

I am a beginner and getting a bit lost ,however hope you dont mind me getting involved in your thread and asking a couple of questions.

Sorry if they are a bit simple ,but thats me 

We all have to learn somewhere 

Hi . its about three differing aspects to be found on 1889 pennies ,and which of the three are to be found together with each other . The three are :-  the two established obverse die types, one with 15 leaves in Victorias hair, the other with 14 . Secondly some coins have REG with the R  almost joined to the E , the other has a clear gap between the R and E. And lastly the six differing date widths , five shown in ALFNAILS picture, plus the new 14 tooth date width I have found, now listed as  Bx .   It does get confusing I must admit, I hope its been of some help.   Terry

[scott]

show the full sized ones of each type so we can get a feel maybe?

[PWA 1967]

12 hours ago, scott said:

show the full sized ones of each type so we can get a feel maybe?

Yes Scott would help me as i am  getting a bit lost 

 

[alfnail]

I will undertake to do this, here is the first coin set of pictures. I am away now until Monday but will do the other 6 (Aa,Ab,Ac,Ad,B,Bx) upon my return if members find this helpful. As this takes me quite a bit of time I would be grateful for confirmation that this style of picturing is what you would like please.

On the Ca you can see missing leaf with incuse lines in it's place, normal date width with top of nine directly under centre drape of gown, and also REG RE touching, as spotted by 2* Terry............who seems to have an excellent eye for detail to match the very best. It's Ian not Alf by the way Terry, alfnail is an anagram of real name, see if you can work that one out! 

[PWA 1967]

Thank you Ian 

[alfnail]

P.S. This is the best definition I can manage within the 500Kb allowance, but if you click on the images and enlarge they will appear better

[secret santa]

Keep the images coming, Ian - really useful. I've checked back through all my obverse R (Freeman 12) varieties from 1882 to 1894 and there is a mix of the the R & E touching and R & E apart. My 3 specimens of 1889 F128 (obverse S) all have the R & E touching like your picture above. I've updated my varieties website to record this.

[terrysoldpennies]

As your all looking into the other dates with the two REG types ,I thought its a good time to announce the extra type I have found on 1890 pennies. The joined and separated types are there but there's an extra type with the E rotated to the right. I have pictured my well worn example and I have seen one other .   Terry

[secret santa]

Just checked my spares and I have an 1890 with a slightly rotated E too.

[terrysoldpennies]

Thats 3 , I wonder how rare they are .   Terry

[terrysoldpennies]

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 5:27 PM, terrysoldpennies said:

As your all looking into the other dates with the two REG types ,I thought its a good time to announce the extra type I have found on 1890 pennies. The joined and separated types are there but there's an extra type with the E rotated to the right. I have pictured my well worn example and I have seen one other .   Terry

Has any one else come across one of these 1890 pennies with the rotated E in REG ?

[scott]

I have found the 2 types of R in 1893, and thats out a few examples I sorted out for later examination, (7-8 examples) and only 1 had short R

not found a rotated in any date at all yet.

Edited April 28, 2016 by scott

[terrysoldpennies]

Hi Scott . It looks like from your count then, that the short R types in 1893s are Scarcer.    I wonder if the rotated type will turn up on other dates, as it looks like the 1890 rotated is at the least very scarce.  Terry

[Nordle11]

The same situation applies with the 1860 N over sidesways N (or Z). The first is the normal variety, the second I have just spotted with a rotated R in BRITT on the obverse

.

[davidrj]

quick survey from my jar of circulated bun pennies

1894 - 4 long R straight E

1893 - 7 long R straight E

1892 - 11 long R straight E

1891 - 18 long R straight E
             2 short R straight E

1890 - 11 long R straight E

[terrysoldpennies]

5 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

The same situation applies with the 1860 N over sidesways N (or Z). The first is the normal variety, the second I have just spotted with a rotated R in BRITT on the obverse

.

Nice find Matt . Looks like its doubled over a straight R.  Your sample Dave suggests that all 90s pennies with the Short Rs are scarce .    Terry

[Nordle11]

Looking over 5 examples that I readily found online without much searching, 3 had a rotated R and 2 the straight R. Perhaps the straighter R is less common?

[jelida]

34 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

Looking over 5 examples that I readily found online without much searching, 3 had a rotated R and 2 the straight R. Perhaps the straighter R is less common?

There were two obverse  2 dies used the 1860 N over N sideways, they are both fairly often found and both have repairs.  I tend to look for the A of VICTORIA which is also badly repaired.

Jerry

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by jelida
Clarification

[scott]

and should we not be looking at every date using obverse 12?

and speaking of which, you seen the R on the 1893/2 in the Copthorne Collection?

[Rob]

10 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

The same situation applies with the 1860 N over sidesways N (or Z). The first is the normal variety, the second I have just spotted with a rotated R in BRITT on the obverse

.

Good, so now you know which two dies were paired with the N over reverse and you can work out in which order they were used. All essential information for working out a die pair matrix. Then you pair each obverse with another die and start to build up the sequence.

[jelida]

1 hour ago, scott said:

and should we not be looking at every date using obverse 12?

and speaking of which, you seen the R on the 1893/2 in the Copthorne Collection?

I see what you mean. Thats rather nice, isn't it? R of REG, by the way.

Jerry

[RLC35]

2 hours ago, Rob said:

Good, so now you know which two dies were paired with the N over reverse and you can work out in which order they were used. All essential information for working out a die pair matrix. Then you pair each obverse with another die and start to build up the sequence.

 

7 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

Looking over 5 examples that I readily found online without much searching, 3 had a rotated R and 2 the straight R. Perhaps the straighter R is less common?

I have two of the N/Z Pennies, and both have the rotated "R".

 

[Rob]

4 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

 

I have two of the N/Z Pennies, and both have the rotated "R".

 

It is the wear to the reverse die you are interested in. Developing flaws etc that allow you to sequence the obverses.

[Nordle11]

5 hours ago, Rob said:

It is the wear to the reverse die you are interested in. Developing flaws etc that allow you to sequence the obverses.

I suppose the first used being the straight R, as Jerry pointed out the rotated R examples have a very badly repaired A, even the one in the picture I posted it is easy to see.

[Rob]

30 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

I suppose the first used being the straight R, as Jerry pointed out the rotated R examples have a very badly repaired A, even the one in the picture I posted it is easy to see.

No, missing the point. On the assumption there is only one N over reverse die, you are looking for wear/developing flaws on this die and then looking at the obverses to see which die is paired with it in either the early or late stage. The state of the two obverse dies is irrelevant as they are different, so an increasingly decrepit obverse die is merely telling you whether two examples are early or later with that die pair, but not which came first.

A single die will have been changed when it became unserviceable, but they would not necesarily be changed as a pair as this is un-necessary expense. It is this point which allows you to sequence die pairing.