1889 Penny / Die Pairings and Date Widths

[secret santa]

I have 2 N over Z pennies, the first showing the start of a die flaw by the 2nd N of PENNY and the second has a much more developed flaw showing it to be a later strike.

I'll attach photos together with the relevant obverses (one of which has the rotated R) to demonstrate Rob's point.

Earlier coin

Later coin with rotated R

Thus the rotated R is a later die.

[jelida]

40 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Thus the rotated R is a later die.

Yes, clearly the case, I have just checked my five N over N sideways, same die combinations as yours, and same progression in the reverse die crack. I have two of the earlier obverse (doubled tail to R in REG) and 3 of the later ( doubled A in VICTORIA and rotated R in BRITT) .

Jerry

 

[Rob]

Good. You now have a starting point for extending the die pairs forwards and backwards. Next job is to find the reverse die(s) previously paired with the earlier obverse, and then any reverse(s) paired with the later obverse. Then you are on a roll and can take it as far as the evidence allows.

You also have to bear in mind there was more than one press in use at any one time, so the potential for crossover is also present.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Rob

[davidrj]

Here's my 1860 JA N/Z

[RLC35]

My examples (2) have all the die cracks that yours do, plus I have a early, and a later Obverse strike, as noted by the die crack at the top of the wreath, and the lack of the die crack on the 2nd example. All of the examples shown earlier only show the die crack at the top of the wreath. 

[jelida]

2 hours ago, RLC35 said:

My examples (2) have all the die cracks that yours do, plus I have a early, and a later Obverse strike, as noted by the die crack at the top of the wreath, and the lack of the die crack on the 2nd example. All of the examples shown earlier only show the die crack at the top of the wreath. 

Which of the  obverse dies is the one without the crack, Bob? It certainly looks very fresh, and  does its reverse display the crack below the N of penny? It clearly comes early in one of the two production die pairings.

Interesting that both dies did crack from the top leaf, but slightly differently of course.

Jerry

PS just noticed that it has the doubled A in VICTORIA, thus the later production die pairing. The reverse die should be 'middle aged'.

Edited April 29, 2016 by jelida
Not to appear a total tw*t

[RLC35]

1 hour ago, jelida said:

Which of the  obverse dies is the one without the crack, Bob? It certainly looks very fresh, and  does its reverse display the crack below the N of penny? It clearly comes early in one of the two production die pairings.

Interesting that both dies did crack from the top leaf, but slightly differently of course.

Jerry

PS just noticed that it has the doubled A in VICTORIA, thus the later production die pairing. The reverse die should be 'middle aged'.

It appears to me to be Obv 2 + Rev D on both examples. Both of the examples have cracks that go slightly below the N in Penny, but the Obverse example without the crack at the upper wreath, only has a faint crack below the N, while the other example has a much bigger crack. As for the doubled A in Victoria...I have never seen a N/Z that doesn't show that feature. In fact I also use that as a identifier on worn reverse examples. Interesting stuff.....

[jelida]

Yes, all 1860 N over N sideways are 2D, but two physically different obverse 2 dies were used with the one reverse die over its lifetime. The earlier obverse die has a much less dramatic 'A' repair.  As Rob suggests, a sequence - or rather a number of interlinking sequences of individual dies- could be extrapolated in either chronological direction throughout the early years of production through obsessive study of large numbers of pennies, using progressive die damage as markers.  Any volunteers? ?

Jerry

[Rob]

Good. You're all doing very well. It helps if your starting point is where only a single die is known. Two dies is not impossible, but the job is a lot harder.

[alfnail]

I’m back from my break and catching up. Have to say I’m quite pleased with the turn of direction my 1889 penny post headed off. I will want to return to the use of progressive die wear as a tool for determining timelines as I have done quite a bit of work in that area, but more on Victorian Copper Pennies rather than Bronzes………….. and think this has led to quite a few interesting finds.

Well done to Rob for his clear explanation before others got the wrong end of the stick.

For the moment, however, having already loaded 1889 Ca pictures I did promise to do the same groupings for the Gouby type A and B dates, so here are the first two (Aa and Ab).

With regard to the R and E of REG touching I had previously replied to say that they did touch on the undocumented date width Ab, but having now had a proper look under the digital microscope I can see that I was mistaken and there is in fact a slight gap, and also a double struck R on my example. Does anyone else have this date width for comparison?

The common Aa date width (extra leaf obverse) displays a distinct gap between the R and E, unlike type Ca (missing leaf obverse) where they always seem to touch 

[alfnail]

....and Ab pics

[alfnail]

...and Ac. Again very small RE gap.

Note digital microscope set to brilliant white light to get best detail...........but not best colour!

[alfnail]

....and Ad, widest 9 high in exergue

[scott]

I want that wide one

I found another narrow one on ebay, just waiting for it to arrive. and incidentally found a narrow date 1890 today as well, which i'll compare, you will be surprised how noticeable they are for 1 or 1/2 tooth difference.

 

[secret santa]

Great pictures, Ian. Thanks for your hard work.

Richard

[alfnail]

No problem Richard. I will try to do the B and B* tomorrow, although the latter will not be to same definition as I unknowingly sold that coin not spotting the different narrowdate width.........at least I kept the old pictures.

[alfnail]

As promised final sets of pictures of the two 1889 narrow dates.....

[alfnail]

......and the slightly wider Bx, but not as wide as Aa or Ca.

Note that both type B's have the gap between R and E of REG.

Apologies for picture quality of this one, sold many years ago so they are edited from my picture library.............as I retain everything!!

[terrysoldpennies]

19 hours ago, alfnail said:

....and Ab pics

Ian . Fantastic close ups , with these pictures I notice the  Ab  Ac  Ad  all with the long Rs  are all over cut on short R types. This seems to suggest the short R type with narrower dates came first .    Terry

[Rob]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Ian . Fantastic close ups , with these pictures I notice the  Ab  Ac  Ad  all with the long Rs  are all over cut on short R types. This seems to suggest the short R type with narrower dates came first .    Terry

Not sure about the order of the Rs. Either could come first, but my money would be on the long tail being first. The higher relief (long tailed R) is showing a little ragged on the left of the upright and is the obvious defect requiring repair. It could be that the repair wasn't deep enough to cover the original long tailed R because looking at the short tailed one, it is perfectly formed. Bear in mind you are working with a previously hardened die, so sometimes the repair is hard to effect, even if the die has been softened again.

It is like the GEOE shilling. You wouldn't repair an R with an E, but you would correct a spelling mistake. Again, I think the repair wasn't deep enough.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Rob

[terrysoldpennies]

50 minutes ago, Rob said:

Not sure about the order of the Rs. Either could come first, but my money would be on the long tail being first. The higher relief (long tailed R) is showing a little ragged on the left of the upright and is the obvious defect requiring repair. It could be that the repair wasn't deep enough to cover the original long tailed R because looking at the short tailed one, it is perfectly formed. Bear in mind you are working with a previously hardened die, so sometimes the repair is hard to effect, even if the die has been softened again.

It is like the GEOE shilling. You wouldn't repair an R with an E, but you would correct a spelling mistake. Again, I think the repair wasn't deep enough.

Rob . you could be right about the long Rs being first, though the thing is that the differing Rs seem to be the result of a die repairs rather than two distinctly different dies   Terry

[Rob]

I never thought it was two different dies, just a case of reinforcing the existing legend. It happened all the time. Repaired worn or filled dies are everywhere in the Victorian coppers/bronzes.

[PWA 1967]

Good pictures Ian and thank you for posting them 

[scott]

another for the wides.

turns out I had one all along lol

[copper123]

Long R variety and short R variety - sounds like a visit to the ENT doctor .