terrysoldpennies Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Hi I'm Terry. I've been collecting mainly pre.dec. pennies for about a decade now. The collection was started by my mother in the 60s, and passed on to me . I have made quite a few discoveries, but have yet to share them . This one I think is the most important . At first glance it appears to be a Freeman 2 + d but no. What first caught my notice was the oversized colons with what appears to be a smaller button like dot in centre of all the colons, so I investigated further, and found the letters did not align with the teeth in the same way as other Freeman obv. 2 coins. Infact the V in VICTORIA and the F in F D point to the tooth. So I counted the teeth , and to my surprise was 145 , now the Freeman 2 has 143, and no other type has 145. I have only seen two others in three years of looking and they are both on London coins . 2 Quote
jelida Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Hmmm, just counted 145 teeth on one of mine which has the colon dots the same as yours, and 143 on a different Obverse 2 penny. And 138 teeth on an obverse 3. Gouby does state that obv 2 has 143, and obv 3 has 138, so that tallies; Do other members have 145 tooth obverse 2's? I wonder whether they tie in with a particular one of the previously described four obv 2 variants? Paul Holland doesnt seem to have counted the teeth when describing these variants in his BNJ article.Eyes a bit befuddled by dot counting now,will try again later.Jerry Quote
jelida Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I meant reverse d variants, not obverse 2, and of course there's no reason for them to be associated, counting teeth clearly affected my reason, hopefully temporarily! The tally of obverse 2's is now three at 143 and one at 145 teeth, recounted to check. I think I feel sick.....Jerry Quote
secret santa Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 As an avid tooth counter (!) you've got me excited . As you say, no other obverse has 145 teeth and yes, I've counted them and I agree with the number. I shall spend tomorrow examining this coin in great detail. I may not be able to sleep tonight............................. Quote
Paulus Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 As an avid tooth counter (!) you've got me excited . As you say, no other obverse has 145 teeth and yes, I've counted them and I agree with the number. I shall spend tomorrow examining this coin in great detail. I may not be able to sleep tonight.............................Lordy Lord, you penny collectors! Quote
damian1986 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 As an avid tooth counter (!) you've got me excited . As you say, no other obverse has 145 teeth and yes, I've counted them and I agree with the number. I shall spend tomorrow examining this coin in great detail. I may not be able to sleep tonight.............................Lordy Lord, you penny collectors! Quote
secret santa Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 Terry, could you please either confirm the reverse variety and date or preferably post a photo of the reverse.Thanks, Richard Quote
jelida Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 This is my F10, 145 tooth obverse. I think Terry has found something really interesting here, and I agree a great first post!Jerry Quote
terrysoldpennies Posted October 15, 2015 Author Posted October 15, 2015 Hi it' Terry again . Thank's for the wecome . I made an error when I said the V in VICTORIA points to the tooth this should have been the A in VICTORIA, as no other type point directly at the tooth . My studies of the three coins of this type show that they were all poor pressings, and a lot of detail being lost in the hair, and also gives a larger bare patch at the bottom of the bust than the type 2. Also there is overstamping on the legend. The three coins all show a die crack almost right across the coin, but two have the same crack position, but the third has a crack just as long, but in a different place, suggesting there were at least two dies made, as they must have broken up shortly after. Its good to see that Jerry has found one, unless this is one of the two sold by London Coins, as this makes four. My straw poll of the numbers in relation to 2+ds is now about 80 to 3 or 4 , making them Ex. rare. Here is the reverse Quote
Nordle11 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 The reverse also has a double stamped N in Penny and the top right serif on the Y is missing as well. Quote
jelida Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 I am not aware that mine came via London Coin Auctions, I bought it at the Midland Coin Fair, mostly because of the dramatic die repairs on some letters. It does appear to have the same die pairing as yours, Terry. Does the die flaw through Victoria's hair match yours?Interesting to note the prevalence you have noted. Have you communicated with Michael Gouby?Jerry Quote
terrysoldpennies Posted October 15, 2015 Author Posted October 15, 2015 Hi Jerry. to answer your question, The crack on your coin running through is the same as my penny and one of the other two found, but the one single example, has the crack running up along the neck and across the ear. And no I have not contacted Gouby about this find, though you my if you wish Terry Quote
secret santa Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 I have already sent details to Michael, but with Terry's photo as Jerry's hadn't been put up at that stage.Richard Quote
alfnail Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 There was one sold on ebay back in February by ribs18 from the Netherlands, but I think that may be the same coin which Terry has pictured. Re. the straw poll I have checked around 20 of my sold pieces this morning and none had 145 teeth. Also the 1861 Obverse 2's (F18 and F20) have 143 teeth but I do not have an F19 to check.....sure I can find that on Richard's site when get time to look!. Quote
alfnail Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Jerry, as you seem to have the best 145 example are you planning to put alongside a normal Obverse 2 (143), and do a careful analysis just to see if there are any other undocumented differences in addition to the legend ones already noted? Thanks, Ian Quote
jacinbox Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Here's the link to the F18 with 145 teeth http://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path[1%2F2%2F1%2F5%2F5%2F12155317]&call=url[file%3Aproduct.chain] Quote
jacinbox Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 http://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path[1%2F2%2F1%2F5%2F5%2F12155317]&call=url[file%3Aproduct.chain] link again Quote
alfnail Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Assuming that link has taken me to the right place I only make that jacinbox F18 obverse 143 teeth, attached image with marks every 10 teeth starting clockwise at V..........are everyone's eyes as boggled as mine, I need to concentrate on a quiz this evening!? Quote
secret santa Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Yup, I agree with I an that the Heritage coin is a standard Obverse D/Freeman 2. The key indicator is the A of Victoria which points to a tooth on the "new" obverse. There are other such differences but this is the most obvious differentiator. Quote
secret santa Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 There was one sold on ebay back in February by ribs18 from the Netherlands, but I think that may be the same coin which Terry has pictured. Re. the straw poll I have checked around 20 of my sold pieces this morning and none had 145 teeth. Also the 1861 Obverse 2's (F18 and F20) have 143 teeth but I do not have an F19 to check.....sure I can find that on Richard's site when get time to look!.F19 - as far as I know there is only one (disputed) specimen - others may know better !!!!! Quote
jelida Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 In fact this coin was my only really decent Obverse 2, so for fine detail on 'normal' type 2 obverses I am relying on net pictures. There may be an issue of die wear on the examples I am looking at, but is there perhaps a difference in the detail in the hair to the lower left of the bun, and in the 'tuft' of hair on the nape of the neck to the left of the ribbon knot? Apart from the strange colon dots, I cant see any other possibilities.Does anybody have a really crisp Obv 2 die picture?Jerry Quote
Bernie Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 There was one sold on ebay back in February by ribs18 from the Netherlands, but I think that may be the same coin which Terry has pictured. Re. the straw poll I have checked around 20 of my sold pieces this morning and none had 145 teeth. Also the 1861 Obverse 2's (F18 and F20) have 143 teeth but I do not have an F19 to check.....sure I can find that on Richard's site when get time to look!.F19 - as far as I know there is only one (disputed) specimen - others may know better !!!!!I hope that there is no dispute regarding the one Freeman 19. Unfortunately not good enough grade to count the border teeth. Brilliant, Terry, for your new discovery !! Quote
secret santa Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Fr19.6.jpgThere was one sold on ebay back in February by ribs18 from the Netherlands, but I think that may be the same coin which Terry has pictured. Re. the straw poll I have checked around 20 of my sold pieces this morning and none had 145 teeth. Also the 1861 Obverse 2's (F18 and F20) have 143 teeth but I do not have an F19 to check.....sure I can find that on Richard's site when get time to look!.F19 - as far as I know there is only one (disputed) specimen - others may know better !!!!!I hope that there is no dispute regarding the one Freeman 19. Unfortunately not good enough grade to count the border teeth. Brilliant, Terry, for your new discovery !!Bernie. sounds like you own that F19 - picture please - I've never seen it.Richard Quote
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