secret santa

I believe the table below accurately lists the various 1953 pennies: Date Gouby Freeman Description rarity die pair name die pair no. 1953 A+a BP1953K 1*+D F243A Toothed obverse & reverse R9 1953 B+a - 1+A - Beaded obverse/toothed reverse Mule - Not proof R9 1953 B+b BP1953A 1+B F245 Circulation issue N 1953 C+a BP1953L - - Matt proof sold in April 1985 R9 1953 C+b BP1953P 1+B F246 Bronze proof R5 1953 C+b - 1+B - Matt proof (for photographic purposes) R9 1953 B+a BP1953M 1+A F244 From the V.I.P.proof set (Mule) R9 1953 B+x BP1953N - - Circulation obverse; toothless reverse PU 1953 C*+b BP1953R - - Pattern obverse (122 beads)/toothed reverse Mule R9 The only coin I haven't seen pictured is the coin defined as BP1953L (Matt proof) sold in April 1985. The Proof coin in the VIP set is interesting because not only is it a mule with toothed reverse, it also has the obverse design used on circulation pennies (121 beads; A of ELIZABETH points to tooth) rather than that used in the standard proof sets (120 beads; A of ELIZABETH points to gap). The coin sold by Spink in Dec 2014 was BP1953R.

]Thanks Chris, I'll reattach Michael's letter for those that are interested.

Sorry - there's no edit to click on - must be doing something wrong

Don't know where to go to even click on edit !!!!!!!!!!!!!

How ? Edit the post, look to the right of the attachment and there is a 'delete' button. Then just upload another. EDIT: You need 'use full editor' to do it. What is full editor ?

How ?

Fortunately I have moved since then - Phew

Thanks Matt I should have thought of that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too late now I guess. R

Gouby has not yet published it formally as C* but: When I bought my penny (with toothed reverse) at Croydon auctions in September 2000 I noticed that it had the 122 border beads, different from either the circulation or proof issues. I wrote to Michael Gouby to see if he had come across this variety as it wasn't mentioned in his book The British Bronze Penny 1860-1967. He checked his own stock and found that he had a similar coin that had featured in a Spink Numismatic Circular article in June 1986 (although he had not noticed that it was this "pattern" reverse with 122 beads. It was this coin that he sold to Trevor Legge whose coins were sold at Spink as mentioned above. After examination of his coin he agreed that it was an unrecorded die type and he said that he would be calling it C* when he next updated his book. However, that book has never been updated and so it has not been publicised, not even on his website. I will attach a copy of his reply to me confirming the C* classification.

Gouby has not yet published it formally as C* but: When I bought my penny (with toothed reverse) at Croydon auctions in September 2000 I noticed that it had the 122 border beads, different from either the circulation or proof issues. I wrote to Michael Gouby to see if he had come across this variety as it wasn't mentioned in his book The British Bronze Penny 1860-1967. He checked his own stock and found that he had a similar coin that had featured in a Spink Numismatic Circular article in June 1986 (although he had not noticed that it was this "pattern" reverse with 122 beads. It was this coin that he sold to Trevor Legge whose coins were sold at Spink as mentioned above. After examination of his coin he agreed that it was an unrecorded die type and he said that he would be calling it C* when he next updated his book. However, that book has never been updated and so it has not been publicised, not even on his website. I will attach a copy of his reply to me confirming the C* classification.

Do you have link to an image or listing? The search feature on the Spink site doesn't seem to work. Wait, never mind, see https://www.spink.com/files/catalogue/14007.pdf (p142). This seems to be BP 1953 L, not the seemingly more common F244. Here's the previous sale I was thinking of: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=144&searchlot=386&searchtype=2 Some more discussion at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9390-1953-penny-mule-rob-bernie/ with what looks like allusions to the second ??? in my list. Here you go mate https://www.spink.com/lot-description.aspx?id=14007000929 - Damn at my bid of £ 2550 I thought I was going to win it Ah thanks - much better image. It really does look like a currency piece. That Spink coin is a very interesting piece - it's only the second recorded occurrence of a pattern obverse which Gouby now calls C* and has 122 border beads as opposed to the 121 on the currency coin of 1953 and 120 on the normal proof of 1953. I have a specimen which I sent to the Royal Mint for verification and they thought that it was an early strike, probably from 1952 which was never adopted.

Nice work Matt

184 it is - try this photo

I've always made it 184 - the same as a 1927 - I guess I'll have to count them again.................................................

That sounds about right - I suppose everyone has been too interested in finding a Freeman 192A for so long and didn't give this any more than a second glance. Except that it has a reverse which looks as tho it's F192A and they're generally spotted very quickly. It does give hope to us all that there are further varieties still to be discovered......

It does seem to be in the right place but doesn't look substantial enough - but, given that the dot on the die will be incuse, maybe the hole filled up over time creating weaker specimens.

Are you sure you've been a good boy ?????

I consider myself told off - subject closed.

Does anyone know who "Elstree" is ? It seems strange that he/she is selling some coins that were purchased quite recently (Last year in one case) unless something unfortunate has happened. Some lovely pennies.

Do you know its origins? Given that it looks well circulated I'm thinking there may be others out there. When I bought it at LCA a few years ago, someone there told me it had been found in a dealer's bowl !!!! So it had been around since issue, probably, and no-one had noticed that it has an ME obverse as well which is the most striking thing about it. So there may well be more.............................

A few years ago someone put up an 1877 F90 narrow date on Ebay, labelling it as such, but starting it at 99p as he didn't know it was rare. I contacted him out of selfish reasons, as I wanted to bid on it and I knew that some people would offer him a few hundred quid for a quick sale. I told him it was worth at least £3k and ended up winning it but it cost me a small fortune !!!

I'm told it's good exercise for the optic muscles.......................

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!! Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on. Time to shoot myself - Gouby's book is The British Bronze Penny (I'll lie down now and stop posting nonsense !!!!)

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!! Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!!