secret santa

I've always made it 184 - the same as a 1927 - I guess I'll have to count them again.................................................

That sounds about right - I suppose everyone has been too interested in finding a Freeman 192A for so long and didn't give this any more than a second glance. Except that it has a reverse which looks as tho it's F192A and they're generally spotted very quickly. It does give hope to us all that there are further varieties still to be discovered......

It does seem to be in the right place but doesn't look substantial enough - but, given that the dot on the die will be incuse, maybe the hole filled up over time creating weaker specimens.

Are you sure you've been a good boy ?????

I consider myself told off - subject closed.

Does anyone know who "Elstree" is ? It seems strange that he/she is selling some coins that were purchased quite recently (Last year in one case) unless something unfortunate has happened. Some lovely pennies.

Do you know its origins? Given that it looks well circulated I'm thinking there may be others out there. When I bought it at LCA a few years ago, someone there told me it had been found in a dealer's bowl !!!! So it had been around since issue, probably, and no-one had noticed that it has an ME obverse as well which is the most striking thing about it. So there may well be more.............................

A few years ago someone put up an 1877 F90 narrow date on Ebay, labelling it as such, but starting it at 99p as he didn't know it was rare. I contacted him out of selfish reasons, as I wanted to bid on it and I knew that some people would offer him a few hundred quid for a quick sale. I told him it was worth at least £3k and ended up winning it but it cost me a small fortune !!!

I'm told it's good exercise for the optic muscles.......................

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!! Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on. Time to shoot myself - Gouby's book is The British Bronze Penny (I'll lie down now and stop posting nonsense !!!!)

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!! Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two). The four different 1922-dated pennies are: Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets) Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335) I hope I got that all correct! Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.) Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue. The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192. The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse. Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct. Clear as mud, probably !!!

What coin did you count 187 rim denticles on? I've counted the rim denticles on a couple of Freeman C/Gouby d pennies and get 184. Sorry - my typo. I should have said reverse B. Freeman reverse B (Gouby reverse has 187 teeth. Gouby reverse c (not listed by Freeman) has 181 teeth. Gouby reverse d (Freeman C) has 184 teeth. Hope this clarifies.

That's the real McCoy! A 1922, with a 1927 Reverse. F192A. No, this is a 1922 with 1927 reverse

I've asked them if they are going online and they always say they have no plans to, so there's no bidding online thro the saleroom. I'm not sure whether you can even leave commission bids thro the saleroom. You can leave postal bids with LCA or get them to telephone you but you can't follow the auctions online. They're losing out on a huge audience but maybe the costs are prohibitive ?

I have it on good authority that these pennies are all fakes - best to stay at home and don't bid on them (please !)

No presents for you this Christmas then !!!!!

Sadly, this bears no resemblance to a genuine F192A which Freeman describes a having a "1927 reverse" which, of course, is not true because the F192A does not have a true 1927 reverse, but something similar which was probably a precursor to the 1927 design. A 1922 penny does exist with the true 1927 reverse but this is probably unique - certainly only one has been found to date. This forum seems to be attracting some members with questionable motives (not to mention grasp of grammar and spelling) , or am I a tad cynical ? P.S. Love Bob's F192A - a beauty

Right, doing my best Mystic Meg impression I can see a tall dark short-sighted stranger paying £750 for the F8 mule and £200 for that vile F41.

Matt Can you do the same trick with Bob's circular dot and my unc lump please. (and how do you do that ????) R Here you go, very interesting that thery aren't actually anywhere near each other.. I don't even need to highlight the two it's that obvious. They're not lined up exactly as it's hard to get both to the exact same zoom but it's still clear. And I'm using a program called Snag-it, it's actually really handy if you have to manipulate lots of images, it's not free unfortunately but we have it at work. Matt That's great - looks as though there might be 2 kinds of 1946 "dot" (with different dots in different places). That makes a pretty tedious "variety" a tad more interesting. I wonder if anyone has another example of the circular dot ? Get checking your pennies, boys ! R

Matt Can you do the same trick with Bob's circular dot and my unc lump please. (and how do you do that ????) R

The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below 1946 F233 ONE' Flaw zoom.JPG I have a 1946 Dot like yours, but I also have a CGS Slabbed 1946, with almost a perfect "Dot"...pic attached. 1946 Dot close up.jpg Now that is very interesting - your dot appears to be in a different place, a little nearer to the E !! My "dot" is far from circular and matches the picture in Michael Gouby's book "The British Bronze Penny 1860 - 1967". It also matches 2 spares that I have which are more worn, with the "dot" becoming more like a dot as it wears down. Could you post a pic of the whole reverse to compare positions. I'll post pictures of the spares.

The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below 1946 F233 ONE' Flaw zoom.JPG Again after looking at your site i have never seen or heard of one in such a good grade. Yes, I bought it over 11 years ago and have never seen any better than Fine since.

Difficult to say - if there weren't numerous examples, I'd say it was a bit of excess metal but a piece of clag must have created an indentation on a die that henceforth produced pennies with the raised "dot".

The 1946 "dot" is the least dot-like of all these features and, on an uncirculated example can be seen as just a lump of clag. See below