I in BRITT in penny?

[Peckris]

You willing to sell either of those David? That's a gap in my collection, along with the elusive 1903 open 3.

You have a PM, can't help on the 1903 I've only one of those

David

Thanks David (reply sent)

[RobJ]

Rob,

have a look on my 1911 farthing page, there is an image showing how to identify the hollow neck

Of Course! Silly me, that should have been my first 'Port of Call' for anything Farthing related.

I've taken a look and it does appear that I do have a 1911 'Hollow Neck' Farthing. I take it however, that they are not as rare as the 1911 'Hollow Neck' Penny. lol

[Gary]

Just for comparision, 1911 Penny

Hollow Neck Flat Neck

BRITT, I to Tooth I to Gap

FID, I to Gap I to Tooth

DEF:, : to Tooth : to Gap

GRA, R to Tooth R to Gap

plus the hollow neck

Edited January 21, 2011 by Gary

[Gary]

Just for comparision, 1911 Penny

Hollow Neck Flat Neck

BRITT, I to Tooth I to Gap

FID, I to Gap I to Tooth

DEF:, : to Tooth : to Gap

GRA, R to Tooth R to Gap

plus the hollow neck

and now the picture with the right Date!

[Peckris]

Just for comparision, 1911 Penny

Hollow Neck Flat Neck

BRITT, I to Tooth I to Gap

FID, I to Gap I to Tooth

DEF:, : to Tooth : to Gap

GRA, R to Tooth R to Gap

plus the hollow neck

and now the picture with the right Date!

That's interesting. I checked both my high grade 1911s yesterday - the one where the I of BRITT points clearly to a space has a slightly hollow neck. Whereas my non-hollow neck penny has the I of BRITT pointing to the left of a tooth. Just how many 1911 varieties are there???

[Gary]

That's interesting. I checked both my high grade 1911s yesterday - the one where the I of BRITT points clearly to a space has a slightly hollow neck. Whereas my non-hollow neck penny has the I of BRITT pointing to the left of a tooth. Just how many 1911 varieties are there???

I think this needs clearing up, I'm confused too!

If members could send me pictures of thier 1911 pennies, I to gap and I to tooth then I will undertake a comparison and try to sort this out once and for all.

Send them to gary.brett (that funny symbol) uk2.net. (thats so I dont get flooded by spam!) you all know what the funny symbol in email addresse's is!

Please make sure that the pics are 800x800 pixels or more and of reasonable quality and I will do the rest and post the results.

will give me something to do at the weekend

[Gary]

oh, and please make sure the pic is taken square to the coin , not angled! Thanks

[Peckris]

Hm, now this is where I have a real difficulty. Since upgrading to OS X Leopard, I lost Photoshop (in itself a minor disaster) which means I also lost the use of my scanner which used Photoshop as an importer.

I've never yet used my camera to take coin photies, but perhaps this is a good time to start? Though I'm afraid my early efforts will prove none too wonderful.

[Gary]

Hm, now this is where I have a real difficulty. Since upgrading to OS X Leopard, I lost Photoshop (in itself a minor disaster) which means I also lost the use of my scanner which used Photoshop as an importer.

I've never yet used my camera to take coin photies, but perhaps this is a good time to start? Though I'm afraid my early efforts will prove none too wonderful.

set to makro and point and shoot, go for it Peckris

[Peckris]

Hm, now this is where I have a real difficulty. Since upgrading to OS X Leopard, I lost Photoshop (in itself a minor disaster) which means I also lost the use of my scanner which used Photoshop as an importer.

I've never yet used my camera to take coin photies, but perhaps this is a good time to start? Though I'm afraid my early efforts will prove none too wonderful.

set to makro and point and shoot, go for it Peckris

I will try! Presumably you're only interested in obverses, right?

[Gary]

Hm, now this is where I have a real difficulty. Since upgrading to OS X Leopard, I lost Photoshop (in itself a minor disaster) which means I also lost the use of my scanner which used Photoshop as an importer.

I've never yet used my camera to take coin photies, but perhaps this is a good time to start? Though I'm afraid my early efforts will prove none too wonderful.

set to makro and point and shoot, go for it Peckris

I will try! Presumably you're only interested in obverses, right?

go for both, who knows!

[Gary D]

Just for comparision, 1911 Penny

Hollow Neck Flat Neck

BRITT, I to Tooth I to Gap

FID, I to Gap I to Tooth

DEF:, : to Tooth : to Gap

GRA, R to Tooth R to Gap

plus the hollow neck

and now the picture with the right Date!

That's interesting. I checked both my high grade 1911s yesterday - the one where the I of BRITT points clearly to a space has a slightly hollow neck. Whereas my non-hollow neck penny has the I of BRITT pointing to the left of a tooth. Just how many 1911 varieties are there???

I think there may actually be three. Freeman talks about there being a flat neck and a shallow neck but makes no mention of the I of BRITT pointing. It's such an obvious indicator that I can only assume he wasn't aware of this variety. This leads me to believe that he was talking about two seperate varieties of the commom I of BRITT to gap. Although he is dismissive of these intensionally being two seperate varieties there does tend to be variations in the so called flat neck where you can find examples where the neck is quiet rounded and others where there is a tendancy for the neck to start showing a shallow look.

Gary D

[tracyaw]

I have a 1911 with a Britt 'I' to the left of tooth, the vertical line 'R' of GRA pointing to a tooth. FID 'I' to Gap. DEF : to tooth. No hollow neck (although I don't really get the hollow neck part, but mine looks like th flat neck in the picture above)Many varieties indeed

[davidrj]

Here's a "hollow neck" 1911 Gouby X

[davidrj]

and another

note the triangle shape on the neck, but I of BRITT to a bead is the clincher

[tracyaw]

Ah I see it now, still don't see it on mine though. I would take a photo, but I am afraid of the pity and head shaking that may result from my efforts

The 'I' of BRITT is also a bit confusing as that 'I' on the pic looks like mine - off to the left

[tracyaw]

But here it is anyway:

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/1911.jpg

[Gary1000]

I've often though that the I in BRITT floats around a bit. The I to tooth is very distinct so if in doubt it likely not one.

[Accumulator]

But here it is anyway:

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/1911.jpg

Hi, that's just the standard 1911 I'm afraid. On the Gouby X, the 'I' points very slightly to the right of the tooth, if anything.

Gouby X on the right:

Edited August 6, 2013 by Accumulator

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1911 Hollow Neck Gouby-X I to Tooth

1911 Hollow Neck Gouby-X I to Tooth close-up

[Colin G.]

I always think the hollow neck is more apparent on the artificially darkened farthings, and have highlighted the area on my page for those that are still a bit stumped about its location

http://www.aboutfarthings.co.uk/Farthing%20-%201911.html

Quite surprising that it is not classified as a separate Obverse design type in many publications considering it spans all three bronze denominations, that surely must indicate it as an intentional design change

[The Coinery]

I dont know if this will help but this is a 1911 penny I of BRITT to a tooth

[Nordle11]

2 minutes ago, The Coinery said:

I dont know if this will help but this is a 1911 penny I of BRITT to a tooth

Only 4 years late to the convo  better late than never

[The Coinery]

8 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

Only 4 years late to the convo  better late than never

I can always rely on you to advise me Mat.

I have been looking for a 1911 Hollow neck for about a month.

Remember when I could not find a 1920 florin in high grade - found one at York Coin fair at the FIRST table I looked - KB Coins. I was chuffed.

I also found a Matte Proof £5 1902 & and a £5 1902 currency both at MS63. Shame they didnt cost same as the 1920 Florin - LOL

[1949threepence]

On 12/23/2007 at 8:48 AM, AardHawk said:

You all had me excited there for a moment!

There are only two varieties of 1911 penny.

1. 1A 180 bt. I of BRITT right of bt (Hollow neck). I of IMP to bt.

2. 2A 181 bt. GRA: BRITT colon to gap & closer to A. IMP: colon to bt.

I of BRITT to gap (Rounded neck). I of IMP right of bt.

The "Hollow Neck" variety has been known about at least as early as the lat 1960s. This variety is also common to other 1911 coinage.

As to rarity, Salzman rates it as Common (1,000,001 - 3,000,000) where as V.R.Court from his survey of £9,000 worth of pennies taken between 1968 to 1972 (see Coin Monthly Sept 1972 Major Varieties of U.K. Pennies 1902 - 1967 Part 2) says that of 4,542 1911 pennies surveyed only 37 had hollow necks and he estimated therefore that 188,000 had been minted. This would suggest that these were the product of two obverse dies. This feature was then incorporated in coinage from 1913 onwards.

DaveG38, for your info, my copy of Salzman which is a first edition was published in 1982, copyrighted in 1981, and according to the acknowledgement took five years to compile.

I hope this doesn't confuse things even more!

 

On 12/23/2007 at 4:34 PM, Gary D said:

188,000 makes it just an R4 so not too common then. That's about 1 in 122 for that year so it's quite possible to search on ebay for a couple of years and not see one.

Probably not nearly as many as that post melt. Although obviously very difficult to estimate the current number now extant. I really wouldn't like to hazard a guess, although clearly they are scarce. 

Despite the odd exception, the vast majority of those now in existence, seem to vary between NF and GF. I've managed to track down 8 which sold at auction over roughly the last 10 years, all in that grade bracket. £38, £80, £70, £65, £50, £40, £100 and £160 hammer - average £75.37.

What has struck me is the inconsistency in pricing of this specific type. That's evident from the list above, and also from 2 other examples. The one was £30.00, which I'm pleased to say I've just bought and thus filled another gap. The other is up for £175, and isn't quite as good, with possible verd.

Any thoughts on scarcity of this variety, and if you have one, what did you pay? (if that's not an impertinent question)