Countermarked cartwheel 2 pence 1797.

[Guest 999]

Hi there,

can anyone tell me about the countermarks on this coin, when they we produced @ to whom they belongs?

[Rob]

They could be anybody. The best lead would be to google any name that is clear. e.g. there are pennies advertising Pear's Soap, which is an obvious one. Does one say HURGON & LONDON? Are the other two hallmarks, or jeweller identifying marks? That would give you a start, but there are so many privately countermarked pieces, not all of which have a meaning, that makes identifying the marks a bit problematic.

[Coinery]

No idea, but extremely intriguing, would really

love to know!

[Guest 999]

Ok,

here is what I get: the large oval mark belongs to Mr. Burgon, the coin collector lived in London, in 19^th century, and yes some of his coins are in British museum. I am sure that other two privy marks is not for advertising soap or so on. They can be related to the royal family, couse they much similar and have a crowns on it. It should be interested to watch some stuff with the similar marks. I do not have more info about Mr. Burgon, so I appreciate if You will find more about him, or his collection, also interested to find out whom belongs other crowned privy marks.

Sorry for my poor English.

[Guest 999]

They could be anybody. The best lead would be to google any name that is clear. e.g. there are pennies advertising Pear's Soap, which is an obvious one. Does one say HURGON & LONDON? Are the other two hallmarks, or jeweller identifying marks? That would give you a start, but there are so many privately countermarked pieces, not all of which have a meaning, that makes identifying the marks a bit problematic.

I can”t post the picture of the back side, couse of the limit 500 kb. for one topic. But yes, the back side also stamped at the back of George, number 5, and in front of him: LONDON and below number 2. Do You have any clue what does it mean?

[Coinery]

Don't apologise for your English, it's perfectly adequate to follow this conversation, it's very good in fact. You can however post the other image in a new post if you want? The crowned letters do look reminiscent of a royal mark, but I can't imagine a good reason for a genuine royal mark to be there?

As I said, I'd love to know more!

[Guest 999]

Don't apologise for your English, it's perfectly adequate to follow this conversation, it's very good in fact. You can however post the other image in a new post if you want? The crowned letters do look reminiscent of a royal mark, but I can't imagine a good reason for a genuine royal mark to be there?

As I said, I'd love to know more!

Well, I don”t want to open up a new topic for one coin, if You wanna see the back, I can email the picture, to U or anyone who want to watch it. Relatively the countermarks, I can said that I didn’t see any reason why this marks can’t be royal? I need links to British countermarks coinage or similar samples, to compare “em.

[bagerap]

The two crown marks could indicate that the coin had been weighed and was of the approved weight, i.e. two ounces.

These coins were frequently used as shop weights.

[Coinery]

Yes, of course, BR, great point!

And 999 you don't have to open a new thread, just post it in this thread!

[Guest 999]

Would U pls. show the same crowned P or V marks on the coin weights? I saw the simple crown mark on weight, but just my guess: the crowned words can be appertained to the person, may be royal persons.

What bout other simple marks?

[Guest 999]

The two crown marks could indicate that the coin had been weighed and was of the approved weight, i.e. two ounces.

These coins were frequently used as shop weights.

If to follow Your point, most same coins must have them! My coin weight 56,7 gramm, I thought 2 ounces is 62,2 gramm.

[Paulus]

Don't forget the old pitfall, troy ounce = 31.1g (still used for precious metals), ounce = 28.35g

2 troy ounces is indeed 62.2 Grams, be careful out there!

[bagerap]

It is difficult to tell from your image if the two crowns are identical. My thinking is that the two letter punches (P & V) might be date marks. Very much in the manner of gold and silver hallmarks. I do know for certain that sovereign, guinea and similar coin weights were randomly inspected and marked from the time of George III onwards. Whether this was the case for shop weights I'm not sure.

[DaveG38]

Crowned 'V' for Victoria, maybe? If countermarked early in her reign, then this coin would have circulated for around 40 years or so, before being altered. Given the general wear, edge knocks etc. that's not unreasonable. Fanciful perhaps, but the BP could just stand for Buckingham Palace, which was first occupied by Queen Victoria in 1837 on her accession to the throne. Perhaps its a privately struck commemorative of that event?

The only other information I can confirm is that there is no surname of 'Hurgon' in the UK census returns for around 1840 with a margin of + or - 40 years. In other words, Hurgon isn't a person's name, so is more likely to be a company or business. That is generally supported by the impressed mark which is very similar in style to company marks. Maybe they were a business that gained a Royal Warrant and for some reason had a Cartwheel countermarked to commemorate this. Having said this, the B and P are offset from each other and commemorating such an event wth a fairly indifferent cartwheel doesn't seem very appropriate, so I'm probably spinning smoke rings with this.

Further minor update. If the word is 'Burgon' not 'Hurgon' (Can't tell from the photo) then there are a number of these as family names in London, with 3 born in 1836 and 2 in 1838, so could perhaps be a birth commemorative, especially for one of those in 1838.

Edited August 28, 2015 by DaveG38

[rooneydog]

There was a chap called Thomas Burgon who used to be a merchant but ended up in the British Museum coin department, he left his collection to the museum. Part of the collection appears to be lots of weights (go to the images section on the page below), perhaps it was his ?

www.ashmolean.org/ash/amulets/burgonarchive/burgon.html

[Coinery]

This thread has been brilliant! What it's all about!

[rooneydog]

This thread has been brilliant! What it's all about!

Coin vandals

[Coinery]

This thread has been brilliant! What it's all about!

Coin vandals

Perfect response, brilliant!

[Guest Ziggy@zmwmilitaria.com]

I know this post is years old, but I thought I would add to it for the sake of future readers: The crowned P & V marks are almost the same as found on flintlock pistols of the era. On a gun barrel, the oval Crowned P is a Proof mark as would have been stamped at the London Proof House from 1670 onwards, indicating a gun barrel has withstood a gunpowder firing test. The Crowned V is a London View mark, which meant that after firing the gun barrel has been visually inspected for defects. Now, I said that the marks were almost identical... On the gun ones of the period, the P and V had a slight swirl leading into the letter. My gut reaction when I saw this was to think that someone  was playing with "Fake" London Proof House stamps, trying them out on a coin to see how they looked.... possibly before applying the marks to a gun? Such faking was not unusual in the gun world. However, due to the uniformity of both marks, I wondered whether coins might have been tested in a similar way, as per weights and measures. Intriguing. 

Ziggy

 

[Coinery]

Interesting post, Ziggy, many thanks for taking the time to add it here for reference!

[PWA 1967]

Yes Hat off good post 

Edited March 29, 2017 by PWA 1967

[Sleepy]

Here's a few more pictures of gun proof marks which, I hope are a bit more clearer than Ziggy's

[Sleepy]

[Sleepy]