More Pennies

[secret santa]

Bob, can you post a photo of the whole CGS reverse please - I'll add it to my varieties site.

Thanks

Richard

PS just checked and I do have a photo of a slabbed coin. A bit orange but could be yours ?

Edited December 12, 2019 by secret santa

[RLC35]

12 hours ago, Rob said:

So, if this dot among several dots is in a CGS slab then how are the masses supposed to differentiate between dots A, B C etc given you have to be a member to look at their site which means you have to cough up a fee to get the information. As a result of the limited access, this variety (and others) will effectively remain 'unrecorded' to the majority through lack of information and a ballpark price will be similarly elusive.

Varieties need to be published in a printed volume to gain any traction.

I agree Rob, CGS is a limited service, since they charge you ($99 pound) annual fee to even look at their grading charts. That is crazy...do they actually get someone to pay the charge? I know their slabs are sold at a reduced premium outside of the UK. Heritage won't sell a CGS slabbed coin. If you want to sell with them you have to break the coin out of the CGS slab and sell it as a raw coin, or get it re-slabbed by NGC, PCGS, etc.  I bought the 1946 "Dot" coin from a London dealer, and it was already slabbed by CGS.

[RLC35]

4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Bob, can you post a photo of the whole CGS reverse please - I'll add it to my varieties site.

Thanks

Richard

PS just checked and I do have a photo of a slabbed coin. A bit orange but could be yours ?

This is the best I can do through the slab.

[1949threepence]

43 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

I agree Rob, CGS is a limited service, since they charge you ($99 pound) annual fee to even look at their grading charts. That is crazy...do they actually get someone to pay the charge? I know their slabs are sold at a reduced premium outside of the UK. Heritage won't sell a CGS slabbed coin. If you want to sell with them you have to break the coin out of the CGS slab and sell it as a raw coin, or get it re-slabbed by NGC, PCGS, etc.  I bought the 1946 "Dot" coin from a London dealer, and it was already slabbed by CGS.

It is. I note that NGC is free in this respect though.

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, RLC35 said:

This is the best I can do through the slab.

Thanks Bob

 

[UPINSMOKE]

I don't know if this helps pictures below from the LCGS website of the slabbed 1946 penny in question.

[RLC35]

1 hour ago, UPINSMOKE said:

I don't know if this helps pictures below from the LCGS website of the slabbed 1946 penny in question.

Thanks Upinsmoke!

That is my coin. It has all the same marks in the same places and everything. They must have some bright lamps to make the coin look that bright though. Thanks for the pic's.

[secret santa]

Excellent !

[RLC35]

I don't believe this myself...the 1946 "Dot" is listed in at least one printed reference, "The Collector's Coins of Great Britain", by Chris Perkins. I guess that makes it official! 

 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, RLC35 said:

I don't believe this myself...the 1946 "Dot" is listed in at least one printed reference, "The Collector's Coins of Great Britain", by Chris Perkins. I guess that makes it official! 

 

Or is he referring to the apostrophe type? He only mentions one, and that is obviously the better known.  

[Peckris 2]

The 1946 dot has been published for a long long time. It was a footnote in Peck and later Freeman. It was included in Gouby's first "Bronze Penny", and I was instrumental in getting it into Spink about 10 or so years ago.

[secret santa]

15 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

It was included in Gouby's first "Bronze Penny"

That was the (apostrophe) flaw as opposed to the dot, so when is a dot not a dot .......................?

[Peckris 2]

2 minutes ago, secret santa said:

That was the (apostrophe) flaw as opposed to the dot, so when is a dot not a dot .......................?

But RCL35's post - which I was responding to - clearly refers to the 'apostrophe'!!

[secret santa]

Actually, I don't think it does (but I could be wrong)

[1949threepence]

There are clearly two completely different marks, albeit in the same general position (although, not precisely) on the 1946 penny.

The one referred to as a footnote in Peck, page 518 of the 1964 edition, states: "Some specimens of this coin have a small raised dot (flaw) on the rev, high up after ONE (specimen in BM)'

Freeman, at point No 36 on page 75 of Bronze Coinage of GB book dated 1985, states "Some specimens have a small elongated raised dot in the field above the E of 'ONE', caused probably by damage to the die" - the operative word being "elongated" - thus highlighting the apostrophe shape.

The confusion seems to arise from the fact that the apostrophe shaped mark is referred to as a dot, the same as the actual dot penny shown by Bob, with the later excellent photo from Mick - but of course that dot is in a different place and is a different shape to the much more well known one referred to by Peck and Freeman.             

[RLC35]

13 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

There are clearly two completely different marks, albeit in the same general position (although, not precisely) on the 1946 penny.

The one referred to as a footnote in Peck, page 518 of the 1964 edition, states: "Some specimens of this coin have a small raised dot (flaw) on the rev, high up after ONE (specimen in BM)'

Freeman, at point No 36 on page 75 of Bronze Coinage of GB book dated 1985, states "Some specimens have a small elongated raised dot in the field above the E of 'ONE', caused probably by damage to the die" - the operative word being "elongated" - thus highlighting the apostrophe shape.

The confusion seems to arise from the fact that the apostrophe shaped mark is referred to as a dot, the same as the actual dot penny shown by Bob, with the later excellent photo from Mick - but of course that dot is in a different place and is a different shape to the much more well known one referred to by Peck and Freeman.             

The two varieties are completely different, and they are in different locations, though the coin I have with the apostrophe does have a small "dot" in the center of the apostrophe, as stated in the Freeman note #36, on page 75. But the apostrophe with the small dot in the middle is in a different location, than the coin with only the "Dot." This has been a interesting conversation. BTW...I saw no reference to either type for the 1946 in Spink (2013 edition).

[Peckris 2]

16 hours ago, secret santa said:

Actually, I don't think it does (but I could be wrong)

It would be very odd if CCGB included the dot but not the far more well known apostrophe. I'm 99.9% sure it refers to the known variety, even more so because the mega rare dot wouldn't (yet) have a price.

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, RLC35 said:

BTW...I saw no reference to either type for the 1946 in Spink (2013 edition).

I got the apostrophe added to Spink in the mid Noughties and it's been in ever since. In the 2018 book it's listed as "1946 ONE ' die flaw.........75  225" (£, EF BU)

[RLC35]

2 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I got the apostrophe added to Spink in the mid Noughties and it's been in ever since. In the 2018 book it's listed as "1946 ONE ' die flaw.........75  225" (£, EF BU)

Peck, you are right about the Spink listing, it just says Die Flaw, and doesn't mention if it is a apostrophe, or Dot. I must have been looking at the Half Penny, when I mentioned that it wasn't listed. I think I am getting Dot and Apostrophe syndrome! LOL...

[blakeyboy]

That era did produce cluster of die oddities:

This looks like 5 minutes before the die exploded and bits went across the room....

Maybe they thought they could get another 24 hours service from it, like James Bond would have done....

 

 

 

Die Another Day?      Anyone???.......

 

 

 

 

[1949threepence]

22 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

That era did produce cluster of die oddities:

This looks like 5 minutes before the die exploded and bits went across the room....

Maybe they thought they could get another 24 hours service from it, like James Bond would have done....

 

 

 

Die Another Day?      Anyone???.......

 

 

 

 

Live and let die more like, Blake 

[Peckris 2]

On 12/14/2019 at 6:42 PM, RLC35 said:

Peck, you are right about the Spink listing, it just says Die Flaw, and doesn't mention if it is a apostrophe, or Dot. I must have been looking at the Half Penny, when I mentioned that it wasn't listed. I think I am getting Dot and Apostrophe syndrome! LOL...

It refers to the apostrophe (probably why it's listed as ONE ' !) and when I got them to include it around 2005 that was the only variety known. I used Gouby's 'Bronze Penny' as supporting evidence, along with references to Peck and Freeman's footnotes.

[alfnail]

F24 with missing top leaf sold in group on ebay last night, cropped pictures for Richard's site unless another member won it and can do better ones.

[terrysoldpennies]

I followed that one too Ian.  I've intensified and straightened the pics.

[alfnail]

Hey, I might have bid a little more if it had looked that good Terry!!