More Pennies

[blakeyboy 1,603]

So have I, and I don't collect copper!

Fascinating meticulous research.

[Peckris 2 2,044]

11 hours ago, alfnail said:

Thanks Blake, not really sure what that means, but it sounds like a compliment....much appreciated.

If you look under your profile (on the left) you'll see the total number of posts you've made. Above it, with a green circle with a + in it, shows how many of your posts have been liked.

[alfnail 756]

Thanks, it seems to be the sum of the❤, 😀 and 🏆 symbol scores, which I see I'm now at 697, one ahead of my 696 content score. Knowing me I will now start watching this, so not sure you've done me a favour!!

I guess that no one will react to this post though, so you will be dragging me down to 697/697 😉

[secret santa 2,016]

Very rare 1881H F103 sold on Ebay today for £1420 - a reasonable price for a genuine rarity with fewer than 10 examples on my website.

[1949threepence 3,366]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Very rare 1881H F103 sold on Ebay today for £1420 - a reasonable price for a genuine rarity with fewer than 10 examples on my website.

Damn, missed it completely. 

[1949threepence 3,366]

Finally managed to get a decent grade 1856 OT. Obviously not the absolute apex, but orders of magnitude better than the one I've got. I'd say toned EF/NEF. No issues.

This is lot 401 from the recent Baldwin's auction. Was chased all the way for it as well. 

Baldwins refer to "intermittent lustre", but I can't see any lustre at all.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by 1949threepence

[secret santa 2,016]

I also bought a coin in this auction - an 1859 small date with what Ian Fall calls a "narrow" 9. It's taller with a larger and oval loop. I've been looking for one of these for a while so I think they must be scarce.

Ian's comparison:

[alfnail 756]

Yes, not easy to find those Richard. The Gouby Date Style A variations are far more common than either of the 9 fonts in my picture which you have shown above. The style that I called 'New Style X / Narrow 9' is also a perfect fit with the protrusions that can be seen on the 1860/59, see picture now attached. When I described it as 'narrow' it was because the entire date is only 9 teeth wide, which is less than all style A variations I have ever seen, and also half a tooth narrower than Gouby Style B (with the smaller numeral 9). I wasn't meaning that the numeral 9 is narrow in itself!! Hope that makes sense.

It's another year that I must try to do some stats on from my 5-year ebay study. Problem is my wife keeps wanting holidays! 😉 

Edited July 8, 2023 by alfnail

[Kipster 157]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

 

This looks far nicer in your pictures than it did on the Baldwins site. No idea how they image their coins, but I've never liked them.

[1949threepence 3,366]

1 hour ago, Kipster said:

This looks far nicer in your pictures than it did on the Baldwins site. No idea how they image their coins, but I've never liked them.

Thanks.

Yes it's odd isn't it. Superior photography (such as the photos Noonan's provide) can be a real selling point and attract buyers. You'd think an organisation with Baldwin's experience would pay more attention to this. 

The pic I've done is pretty much how the coin looks in hand. For example the colour is identical.

[Kipster 157]

34 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes it's odd isn't it. Superior photography (such as the photos Noonan's provide) can be a real selling point and attract buyers. You'd think an organisation with Baldwin's experience would pay more attention to this. 

Agree completely.

With the funds at their disposal, a decent camera setup, or failing that, a coin microscope, would make it look more appealing, instead of looking like it's been scanned on the photocopier.

[secret santa 2,016]

3 hours ago, alfnail said:

I wasn't meaning that the numeral 9 is narrow in itself!!

Right, I'll update my descriptions.

[1949threepence 3,366]

I think my 1859 small date is (by pure default) one of the taller 9 with oval loop. When purchased, it wasn't even touted as a small date, just date only.

I haven't got close up photographic equipment (must get), but here is the best I could do with an ordinary pic. Not sure it will be good enough to discern the difference.

  

[alfnail 756]

Yes, that's the narrow 9 date style Mike, and a nice looking example too, well done 👍

[1949threepence 3,366]

28 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Yes, that's the narrow 9 date style Mike, and a nice looking example too, well done 👍

Thanks Ian. Got it from Cambridgeshire Coins, who often tend to be careless and have let some high value coins go for peanuts - not checked. 

[Peckris 2 2,044]

On 7/8/2023 at 12:25 PM, 1949threepence said:

Finally managed to get a decent grade 1856 OT. Obviously not the absolute apex, but orders of magnitude better than the one I've got. I'd say toned EF/NEF. No issues.

This is lot 401 from the recent Baldwin's auction. Was chased all the way for it as well. 

Baldwins refer to "intermittent lustre", but I can't see any lustre at all.

It will appear when you're not looking at it

[jelida 1,197]

Having read the above re 1859 penny ‘9’ font varieties, I purchased this example from KB coins at the MCF yesterday, £210 ….not too unreasonable. 
https://www.kbcoins.com/store/pennies-1859-victoria-small-date-very-scarce-ef/nef.html

This coin, and Richard’s and Mike’s all seem to have the zig-zagging flaw from the lower left of Victoria’s bust to the rim, this might be a consistent feature of the variety.

Jerry

[secret santa 2,016]

4 hours ago, jelida said:

This coin, and Richard’s and Mike’s all seem to have the zig-zagging flaw from the lower left of Victoria’s bust to the rim, this might be a consistent feature of the variety.

Looks like it - over to Ian to confirm !

[alfnail 756]

Richard / Jerry,

Yes, I am sure you are correct in that this flaw is a unique identifier of type.

I have owned 6 examples over the years and all have had this flaw at front of truncation. The flaw progresses, on later strikes, right through the base of the truncation and then down to a border tooth at the back of Victoria. This die also has another progressive flaw through the VICTORIA legend; the attached pictures refer.

I am, therefore, almost certain that the numeral 9 which we have been discussing only appears on a single obverse die.

[alfnail 756]

This discussion has prompted me to take digital pictures of the various numeral 9’s on my own 1859’s, and I now show some of these below. The pictures were all taken at 140x magnification by sliding next coin under the microscope without changing settings. These are all decent grade coins so I don’t think that ‘flattening’ through wear will have made much difference to the measurements which I have given. I have only taken measurements of the lengths, as width measurements would have made the pictures too busy, and I think one can see the width variations without needing to have their measurements. We all knew that Gouby B has a visibly different smaller 9, so no great surprise on that one, but I think there are a couple of other interesting things:-

The 9 (top right), which has been the subject of this discussion, is indeed narrower (in itself) than the other type of 9’s. So, in addition to being the narrowest date width of all 1859’s (at 9 teeth) it could also be thought of as a ‘narrow date’ type based upon the width of the 9 itself. Note that this 9 also has other distinguishing features e.g. shape of its tail.

The surprising one for me is that I now believe that the numeral 9 on Gouby Date Style Ab is slightly different to that on Gouby Aa. In addition to the measurement difference, I think that the area within the top loop also seems more circular on Ab. You will see that I have drawn in a blue arrow to highlight a protrusion bottom right, this can be checked against the picture on MG’s website to verify that this is the exact same die which he references.

CP 1859 date varieties (michael-coins.co.uk)

P.S. My experience is that Gouby Aa is by far the most common type for 1859, and I have this morning taken measurements of several other Aa coins, all coming in at 1.62mm, albeit with varying amounts of doubled numerals. I can also show these pictures if anyone wishes to see them.

 

[secret santa 2,016]

Great stuff, Ian !

[1949threepence 3,366]

Fantastically well researched Ian. Much appreciated.

My specimen has the start of a die flaw between the V and I of VICTORIA, but no extension beyond that.

[secret santa 2,016]

Mine has got the same as Ian's.

[PWA 1967 1,841]

A new one and not a bad grade for type.

F39A 1862 8 over 6.

 

[secret santa 2,016]

Over a year ago I wrote to Spink suggesting some additional varieties to include in the Penny sections of their "Coins of England" annual catalogues.

I listed the following types with pictures of the interesting features:

1847 Medusa, 1858 large rose, 1860 ONF, 1862 3 plumes, 1862 VIGTORIA, 1862 B over R, 1863 open 3 and 1909 F169. I felt that they were all worthy of mention with associated values as they exist in collectable numbers, and offered advice from my records on recent prices paid for these types. I thought that Medusa would be a certainty.

Today I received a reply saying that they would include only the 1858 large rose and the 1862 VIGTORIA, despite already including 1863 over 1 (a much less obvious type) and 1903 open 3.

Rather disappointing.