More Pennies

[copper123]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:58 PM, 1949threepence said:

 

Once in your ownership, they will never cause you any hassle, annoyance or grief and can only ever enhance your relaxed moments. 

Unlike women!

[Bernie]

51 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Unlike women!

I have known women that have enhanced my relaxed moments

[Peckris 2]

23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Ingram is offering one with a "cleverly altered date" (looks clumsy and botched to me), for an overpriced £325 - link 

 

Yes, if that was done much better, and was cheaper - I'd be up for it!

 

23 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I don't leave a gap. If I get that lucky then I'm prepared to move everything along one. 

 

It's true - I haven't left a gap, and if I DID buy a clever fake, I'd have to move everything along one...

 

22 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

 

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

[1949threepence]

39 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

 

Yes, if that was done much better, and was cheaper - I'd be up for it!

 

 

It's true - I haven't left a gap, and if I DID buy a clever fake, I'd have to move everything along one...

 

 

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

Yes, that's a really good way of putting it. I actually very much like them, and already have an R96 & R98. Looking for an R97, and also, eventually,  a few of the 1797 restrikes. 

Of course the first ones weren't produced until about 1862 (according to Peck), and continued for many years henceforth. So much of Taylor's work could never have been presented as fake currency anyway, as that type would already have been demonetised. Even so, as Rob says, there was never any intention to deceive, and everything was done "up front" as it were. 

Boulton had a great imagination, and some of his productions, especially around 1805, are truly unique.  

[VickySilver]

Ah, nicely put and couldn't agree more. I pulled out some very nice coins that I use as reference and then just had a look and answer a few questions I had come up with. Looked at two, and then had a look at a broader range. Very enjoyable and that bit cost nought.

[secret santa]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:05 PM, Peckris 2 said:

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

I've tried to capture as many versions as I could:

https://headsntails14.wordpress.com/george-iii-patterns-restrikes/#top

[PWA 1967]

A recent purchase and dont see many like most Copper varieties now in a decent grade ,Bramah 26a with the missing serifs on the I of Britanniar.

Happy Christmas and all the best.

Pete.

 

[alfnail]

Hi Pete, I saw that one and was a little tempted but decided that, as I already have 2, I would give it a miss.

You are right that it is a type that was seen more often 10 to 15 years ago than it is nowadays.

I ought to do a count of the Bramah 26a's from my 5 year study period covering that period; hopefully will get round to it one day, but haven't done too much work on 1858's yet as just so many coins and loads of varieties!  

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Hi Pete, I saw that one and was a little tempted but decided that, as I already have 2, I would give it a miss.

You are right that it is a type that was seen more often 10 to 15 years ago than it is nowadays.

I ought to do a count of the Bramah 26a's from my 5 year study period covering that period; hopefully will get round to it one day, but haven't done too much work on 1858's yet as just so many coins and loads of varieties!  

Ian, that would be really interesting and something to look forward to. 

Obviously the Bramah 26a is very much an unsung scarcity among pre 1860 Victorian pennies. I got mine as an unattributed date only specimen. Only seen one since, but don't go looking every day, so there will have been quite a few more no doubt, including Pete's.

Don't think too many dealers know about the variety, or don't bother looking for it. 

[PWA 1967]

MOST of the Copper varieties can be found quite easily in lower grades if your prepared to look and very rarely attributed.

However finding them in HIGH grade is were it becomes more difficult and some harder than others ,such as the 1854 No (or weak) Colons.

So the 1858 26a plenty of them and certainly not rare or hard to find , but how many do you see better than EF 😀

Like this 1854 DOT i bought at the weekend also ,plenty in low grade.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155307972243

Edited December 20, 2022 by PWA 1967

[1949threepence]

Interesting to note that a number of the sub varieties identified by Bramah as rare, were never mentioned by Peck. For example the 2a, 2c, 3b, 4a, distinctions between 10b & 10c, 23a, 25c & 26a.

Bramah's book was only ever (as far as I can see) subject to one printing. Consequently, after nearly a century (copyright 1929), remaining often tatty copies are now, understandably, very scarce and very costly. Hence many collectors and dealers are unaware of these rare varieties. Some are especially rare in the higher grades, but seldome attrbuted. Cope and Rayner looked at grade rarity comparisons in their 1975 book, but apart from the 1854/3 - which also, incidentally, is extremely rare in EF and above, according to them - no mention is made of the other Bramah sub varieties referred to above.

The 2a seems to be more widely known about than the rest for whatever reason. Bramah type 17a (the 1854 no colons) was taken forward by Peck, but again, only seldom attributed.  

Do we need a new book to raise awareness? - naturally this time with high end photography, including close ups, available

[oldcopper]

13 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Interesting to note that a number of the sub varieties identified by Bramah as rare, were never mentioned by Peck. For example the 2a, 2c, 3b, 4a, distinctions between 10b & 10c, 23a, 25c & 26a.

Bramah's book was only ever (as far as I can see) subject to one printing. Consequently, after nearly a century (copyright 1929), remaining often tatty copies are now, understandably, very scarce and very costly. Hence many collectors and dealers are unaware of these rare varieties. Some are especially rare in the higher grades, but seldome attrbuted. Cope and Rayner looked at grade rarity comparisons in their 1975 book, but apart from the 1854/3 - which also, incidentally, is extremely rare in EF and above, according to them - no mention is made of the other Bramah sub varieties referred to above.

The 2a seems to be more widely known about than the rest for whatever reason. Bramah type 17a (the 1854 no colons) was taken forward by Peck, but again, only seldom attributed.  

Do we need a new book to raise awareness? - naturally this time with high end photography, including close ups, available

I don't think Peck really gave Bramah his due - perhaps subconscious rivalry?

In the Spink Numismatic Circular of 1968 is a letter from a reader announcing a new discovery - A over N in the 1717 dump farthing. He also had a letter from Peck verifying this. 

But when you go to Bramah you'll see it's one of his main 1717 varieties, with the comment that it is of similar rarity to the standard non-overstrike.

Peck died the same year (1968) so his faculties might have be lower than normal, but it seems that he wasn't or had never been aware of a major farthing variety in the only other 20th century book on copper coins.

Edited December 22, 2022 by oldcopper

[1949threepence]

2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I don't think Peck really gave Bramah his due - perhaps subconscious rivalry?

In the Spink Numismatic Circular of 1968 is a letter from a reader announcing a new discovery - A over N in the 1717 dump farthing. He also had a letter from Peck verifying this. 

But when you go to Bramah you'll see it's one of his main 1717 varieties, with the comment that it is of similar rarity to the standard non-overstrike.

Peck died the same year (1968) so his faculties might have be lower than normal, but it seems that he wasn't or had never been aware of a major farthing variety in the only other 20th century book on copper coins.

Yes.

Page 46: "FARTHING 1717, 3a. CORRECTED ERROR. R - An N has been lightly cut where the first A is and shows plainly below the correct letter."

Described as rare.

 

 

[oldcopper]

56 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes.

Page 46: "FARTHING 1717, 3a. CORRECTED ERROR. R - An N has been lightly cut where the first A is and shows plainly below the correct letter."

Described as rare.

 

 

Thanks! Did he also say it was of similar rarity to the standard? I haven't got Bramah to hand at the moment and maybe my mind's playing tricks on me.

[mrbadexample]

7 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Thanks! Did he also say it was of similar rarity to the standard? I haven't got Bramah to hand at the moment and maybe my mind's playing tricks on me.

"Nos. 3 and 3a. are rare; No. 3b. very rare."

[oldcopper]

2 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

"Nos. 3 and 3a. are rare; No. 3b. very rare."

Thanks - he puts them on the same level, though the overdate must be rarer to a certain degree.

Edited December 22, 2022 by oldcopper

[secret santa]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:29 PM, 1949threepence said:

Do we need a new book (Bramah) to raise awareness?

My own comments for what they're worth:

Many of Bramah's "varieties" such as the 2a (small curved marking to the left of the foot of the 4) could be regarded as trivial (and almost certainly non-intentional) alterations to a die and not truly therefore a recordable variety in Peck's eyes. The intentional overdates are listed by Peck. There are comparable examples in the bronze range that Michael Gouby lists but Freeman either ignored or mentioned in footnotes.

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

[1949threepence]

39 minutes ago, secret santa said:

My own comments for what they're worth:

Many of Bramah's "varieties" such as the 2a (small curved marking to the left of the foot of the 4) could be regarded as trivial (and almost certainly non-intentional) alterations to a die and not truly therefore a recordable variety in Peck's eyes. The intentional overdates are listed by Peck. There are comparable examples in the bronze range that Michael Gouby lists but Freeman either ignored or mentioned in footnotes.

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

Hmmmm, I'm not sure to be honest. I can see the logic of what you're saying, but it's surely based on the premise that the generation which grew up with lsd in the days immediately prior to decimalisation, are the only ones who continue momentum with the hobby. However, numismatics is centuries old, so even if coins do become completely redundant we have to set against that, the fact that coins are big business internationally, and it's not just the baby boomer generation who collect - for example as you know, I'm an obsessive collector and born in the very latter years of generation X (so thankfully can't be labelled a millenial). Inevitably the momentum and interest in coins will be passed from generation to generation, and, just as now, there will always be some who take on the mantle of collectorship and dealership.

Redundancy of cash and no further use for coins, will take a very very long time internationally. Not all countries are like the UK with our seemingly deleterious and somewhat parochial attitude towards notes and coins. Much of which, I suspect, is motivated by a governmental and organised finance desire to have more control over ordinary folk. As long as cash is around, much of that control is totally impossible, notably for tax purposes, as it's beyond the all seeing eye of the state. Moreover, the fact that coins no longer exist may eventually have one of two effects, either a) it goes as you suggest, or b) it actually increases interest. Depends on collective psychology. 

From what I observe shopping in supermarkets, especially ASDA, most young people use actual cash. It's the "middle aged" who use cards, for convenience. Actually most older guys use cards as well - at the self serves, although older women tend to use cash via a checkout operator. I'm observant like that. Traders who insist on only accepting cards are actually shooting themselves in the foot, as they will be missing a portion of trade on a constant basis. Conversely, tradesmen (decorators etc) actively prefer cash payments, probably for tax avoidance purposes, but who cares given how our money is spent by the state. 

The current boom in coins isn't just driven by the baby boomer generation. It can't be. If it were, I suspect it would be much more "steady state" than what it is.  Many other age ranges are involved.           

[secret santa]

I hope you're right - have a great Christmas.

[1949threepence]

19 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I hope you're right - have a great Christmas.

You too Richard.

[Peckris 2]

11 hours ago, secret santa said:

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

There will always be a generation of collectors - some people buy vinyl records because they prefer that format, some buy just because they collect them as items, and there will be an overlap of both; among the collectors there is intense interest in - for example - matrix numbers that indicate the first pressing. Also, postcard collectors are thriving though not many still send postcards.

I don't think we need to worry just yet.

[VickySilver]

I'm on the fence on this topic as I have a near-14 year old son, and neither he nor his friends nor classmates for love or money can be stimulated to find interest in coins, and this is despite my best efforts over the last 10 years. Moreover I am a solo-practice physician in the US and even give away coins with some "pep talk" to young folk coming to the office - this to essentially NO effect despite picking buffalo nickels, new and old types, and the latest in commem quarter dollars. 

Many collectors, but especially dealers here crow about how many young numismatists they see - well while there are a COUPLE, there actually are relatively precious few and I mean few at ANY venues including small, medium and large shows and coin shops. This is true on up through young men and ladies in their early 30s as well. I have looked for signs of life (collecting or interest in coins) in younger generations and they are hard to find....

[1949threepence]

An interesting and encouraging article here 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

I'm on the fence on this topic as I have a near-14 year old son, and neither he nor his friends nor classmates for love or money can be stimulated to find interest in coins, and this is despite my best efforts over the last 10 years. Moreover I am a solo-practice physician in the US and even give away coins with some "pep talk" to young folk coming to the office - this to essentially NO effect despite picking buffalo nickels, new and old types, and the latest in commem quarter dollars. 

Many collectors, but especially dealers here crow about how many young numismatists they see - well while there are a COUPLE, there actually are relatively precious few and I mean few at ANY venues including small, medium and large shows and coin shops. This is true on up through young men and ladies in their early 30s as well. I have looked for signs of life (collecting or interest in coins) in younger generations and they are hard to find....

The spark of interest has to come from within. It cannot be imposed.

[VickySilver]

Of course that is basically my slant - it doesn't by and large seem to be there, but can't help but try really - or at least that is my thought.