More Pennies

[Unwilling Numismatist]

I don't mind the looking, it's having something to look at is the problem, I think I'm all out of unidentified penies at the moment.

 

[alfnail]

Re. Bernie’s comment “two known die parings of F32”, I have only ever owned a couple of this rare type, so not studied in any detail, but my own findings do show two different reverse date types…………as pictured on the attachment. I think the top date is more common, and same as the ones pictured above, but the bottom date in my attachment has the last numeral one even more slanted than the commoner type. Full reverse picture also attached for reference.

May I ask if it is this reverse ‘date variation’ which prompted the “two known die parings” comment, or whether there is some other feature which I have not yet observed? I have noticed that some of the commoner reverse date type develop a die flaw after the first N of PENNY (same as Jerry’s example, top one of the 3 pictured above), but also wonder if there is more than one obverse involved on an F32.

[alfnail]

...when I said 'pictured above' I meant on Page 96 of this thread!

[Bernie]

Two different die pairs noted, Fr32 6+F 1861M J+f

 

OBVERSE

Type 1

Linear circle well defined and spaced close to legend “VICTORIA”

Second leg of “V” in “VICTORIA” touching linear circle. Some flan examples

found concave

Type 2

Linear circle weak in places, legend “VICTORIA” not too close to linear circle.

 

REVERSE

Type 1

Date numerals inline, last numeral “1” very slightly wide and tilting clockwise by 5 degree’s.

Linear circle below exergual line weak then missing after last date numeral.

one noted with die crack on right of first "N" in "PENNY" to toothed border. Some flan examples found

convex.

Type 2

Last date numeral “1” spaced wide, slightly low and tilting by approximately 5 degree’s.

Linear circle below exergual line mostly intact, except 3mm. Missing left of date, near exergual line.

 

 

[1949threepence]

52 minutes ago, Bernie said:

Two different die pairs noted, Fr32 6+F 1861M J+f

 

 

OBVERSE

 

Type 1

Linear circle well defined and spaced close to legend “VICTORIA” - CHECK

Second leg of “V” in “VICTORIA” touching linear circle. Some flan examples

found concave - CHECK  

Type 2

Linear circle weak in places, legend “VICTORIA” not too close to linear circle.

 

 

REVERSE

 

Type 1

Date numerals inline, last numeral “1” very slightly wide and tilting clockwise by 5 degree’s. - CHECK 

Linear circle below exergual line weak then missing after last date numeral.- CHECK runs a little way after the last date numeral, then disappears up to just below the exergual line, where it re-commences  

one noted with die crack on right of first "N" in "PENNY" to toothed border. CHECK (if only one then I have it)

Some flan examples found convex - CHECK (hence the premature flattening of Britannia)

Type 2

Last date numeral “1” spaced wide, slightly low and tilting by approximately 5 degree’s.

Linear circle below exergual line mostly intact, except 3mm. Missing left of date, near exergual line.

 

 

 

Mine is clearly type 1, as is Jerry's.

Ian's second example is obviously type 2.

Thanks Bernie. Incredibly useful info, as it's very difficult to get much insight into differences on such a rare variety. 

 

 

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, alfnail said:

...when I said 'pictured above' I meant on Page 96 of this thread!

Ian - could you do a pic of your type 2 F32 obverse?

[alfnail]

Hi Mike, picture of obverse of that F32 Type 2 is attached as requested. It is not actually in my own collection, but can be seen on Richard's rarestpennies website as his example number 8. The only example of F32 which I have retained is the one also shown on his website as example 12. Despite the low definition obverse picture of example No. 8 I can now see the V to linear circle distances differ.................thanks to Bernie pointing this out.  

[1949threepence]

Thanks Ian. 

Your F32, example 12 on Richard's site, is a stunning specimen.  

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by 1949threepence

[alfnail]

Probably one of the last pieces I will ever sell Mike, may even take that one with me to the grave...........although I have difficulty explaining that sort of thing to my wife!  

[1949threepence]

19 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Probably one of the last pieces I will ever sell Mike, may even take that one with me to the grave...........although I have difficulty explaining that sort of thing to my wife!  

There is no way I would ever part with such a piece, Ian. Irreplaceable, literally as well as figuratively.    

[alfnail]

Thanks Mike I'm sure you are right, but you never know, I did sell my F24 and F27 when the "I need another holiday" pressure was on!

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, alfnail said:

Thanks Mike I'm sure you are right, but you never know, I did sell my F24 and F27 when the "I need another holiday" pressure was on!

As I recall your F24 was a nice one as well. 

[alfnail]

Yes, the one on Richard's site as his example 9, also with a different date width to the usual F24's. Maybe we need to ask Bernie how many F24 die pairings! 

[Bernie]

Fr24 4+F 1861E F+f

 OBVERSE

Type 1

Three leaves in first row of laurel.

Linear circle weak but continuous above legend “VICTORIA”.

 

Type 2

Two leaves in first row of laurel, upper leaf missing or very weak.

Linear circle mostly absent above legend “VICTORIA”.

 

REVERSE

Type 1

Last numeral “1” in date noticeably spaced wide from “6”, slightly low and tilting clockwise

approximately 15 degree’s.

Linear circle in exergue continuous.

Small trace of extra tail, with tip cut off, on date numeral “6”

one noted with die crack from tooth between “8” and “6” of date, running vertical towards breastplate.

 

Type 2

Last numeral “1” in date spaced slightly wide, very low and tilting approximately 20 degree’s

Clockwise, almost in contact with linear circle.

Trace of extra tail to date numeral “6”

 

 

[1949threepence]

Just seen this on e bay. On the face of it, a bog standard F29, but what the hell is to the right of the light house, rock wise, and what is that tube like object to the left?

To get a clearer view go into the link and see the expanded view - link 

 

 

 

[Rob]

Looks like crud. There's enough of it everywhere else.

[jelida]

10 minutes ago, Rob said:

Looks like crud. There's enough of it everywhere else.

I agree. This coin looks like it has been in the ground, thick patina missing in some areas and raised due to underlying corrosion elsewhere.

Jerry

[1949threepence]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

Looks like crud. There's enough of it everywhere else.

 

8 hours ago, jelida said:

I agree. This coin looks like it has been in the ground, thick patina missing in some areas and raised due to underlying corrosion elsewhere.

Jerry

Thanks Gents. I can see that now. In my defence it was very late at night and I was practically falling asleep, so wasn't fully compus mentis 

Fortunately others were awake !

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by 1949threepence

[IanB]

I have just acquired a 1858 Large Rose penny. Would you please take a look and let me know what your thoughts are on what is under the 8. I do not think it's an overstamped 8 over 8 as there some odd bits sticking out. Maybe a 3 or a 9?

Edited July 3, 2018 by IanB

[RLC35]

56 minutes ago, IanB said:

I have just acquired a 1858 Large Rose penny. Would you please take a look and let me know what your thoughts are on what is under the 8. I do not think it's an overstamped 8 over 8 as there some odd bits sticking out. Maybe a 3 or a 9?

 

Looks like a 9 to me.....

 

[Rob]

I'm going for a 7.

[1949threepence]

Uncertain, although I don't think it's a 7 - the 8 over 7 has a very distinct look which that digit doesn't appear to have.  

[IanB]

8 hours ago, RLC35 said:

 

Looks like a 9 to me.....

 

I was thinking 9 as well, the straight back and small lump on the inside bottom left which could be the tail of a nine.

If it is a nine, would it be normal to overstep it with an 8?

Is this something that is usually found on a Large Rose variety?

Edited July 4, 2018 by IanB

[Rob]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Uncertain, although I don't think it's a 7 - the 8 over 7 has a very distinct look which that digit doesn't appear to have.  

The 7 would have been entered separately and therefore isn't necessarily aligned correctly, plus the years 1853 to 1857 saw a large number of dies made (1856 excluded). The small protrusion at the base is good for a 7, as is the top right corner and possibly the inside of the bottom loop of the 8. The 8 has a straight, slightly ascending line at the top which would be commensurate with a filled 7, recut to an 8. 

Filling and recutting dies also risks damaging the edges of the previous profile because if you have a previously hardened die then it will be brittle and so easily chipped where the relief changes. It could be that all of the protrusions are chips caused by reinforcing the 8 and not from an earlier dated die.

The die has the initials on the truncation which suggests a production date no later than 1858. For this reason, it is likely the underlying digit is not a 9, though can't definitely exclude a 9 sunk in error. The existence of 8 over 7, 6, 3 and 2 tells us that they were using up all the recoverable dies prior to the introduction of the bronze issues.

The best way to establish the details is probably to put it into an electron microscope and produce an image such as those in Marsh where it is possible to do some limited depth profiling.

[PWA 1967]

Yes a seven i think.

Often described as an underlying figure and sometimes a nine.

The 1858/7 has three varieties with clear downstrokes ,one to the left ,middle and right all on W.W. pennies.

So obviously entered a few times and the back (right outer) is more like a seven being straight and the tiny angle top right.

The inner part of the bottom loop may just be the original eight that had broken.

More importantly the Large rose are quite scarce Ian 

Edited July 4, 2018 by PWA 1967