More Pennies

[Nordle11]

1 minute ago, brad said:

5 specimens in 1 year should only mean there are more to be found. However Rob may have a point the 1862 B over R in BRITT has been documented for more than a couple of decades yet we know of just 5 in existence. Did a forum member but the VIGTORIA?

 

My point exactly, VIGTORIA = 5 examples in 1 year, B over R = 5 examples in 20 years. They didn't find all 5 of those B over Rs in the first year after the first was found, I'm pretty sure more will be turning up.

[Rob]

Yes, but it is obvious to the naked eye, not just under a glass. Either people consciously avoid looking at the VICTORIA part of the legend, or ..........

The serifs on the G make it obvously different to the two ends of the C being wider at the end instead of narrower. I don't believe that people are so unobservant. And they weren't all made yesterday.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Rob

[Nordle11]

You say that but it took 160 years for people to spot it in the first place, so I would say yes, people are unobservant. Now that it's a known variety with a couple of sales, including one through an auction house, I think we will definitely see more surfacing in the near future.

 

[Rob]

I often wonder how many things would have been recorded earlier if Peck and Freeman had extended their published study to include legend varieties. ESC has recorded things like RE.X for REX since the first edition in 1949, so maybe silver collectors were more attuned to looking for legend varieties than copper collectors, though I find this hard to believe. They aren't a separate species.

[brad]

48 minutes ago, Rob said:

I often wonder how many things would have been recorded earlier if Peck and Freeman had extended their published study to include legend varieties.

Freeman did include legend varieties - example Freeman 527, only that not that many were listed/identified when his book came out. It was not until the J Jerrams’ pamphlet came out did the focus shift to micro varieties (as far as the early bronze pennies are concerned, which later cascaded to other bronze denominations). Back in the day people were still shuffling through change to spot a 1951 penny or even a 1933.

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by brad

[Colin G.]

1 hour ago, Rob said:

I often wonder how many things would have been recorded earlier if Peck and Freeman had extended their published study to include legend varieties. ESC has recorded things like RE.X for REX since the first edition in 1949, so maybe silver collectors were more attuned to looking for legend varieties than copper collectors, though I find this hard to believe. They aren't a separate species.

Peck did say that he was in danger of never getting the publication completed if he started to record such varieties, but did not discount them, and I suppose when you think they would have been across several denominations it would have been a further addition to what was already a mammoth task.

[Rob]

That one seems the odd one out. Yes, it is obvious up to a point, but given the character size I don't believe it was the only legend variety he found when trawling through them. The penny and halfpenny legends have a larger font size, which should lead to errors being more readily identified. The 8/6s were quickly spotted and added to the list, despite not needing a glass to read the date.

[1949threepence]

21 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

 

There were two. I don't think either sold.

Meanwhile the a/UNC 1864 crosslet with numbers scratched in the obverse field, fetched £9k ! - although you can't see the numbers on LCA's photo at all.   

 

21 hours ago, jelida said:

Stephen Lockett  started the bidding for the better 1862 halfpenny date at about 4K, so he either had bids to that amount, or the vendor upped the ante as that was above estimate. The VIGTORIA did well despite poor condition.

Jerry

 

5 hours ago, azda said:

If you don't see a realised price it means the coin never sold, they don't post "unsold" against a coin, they just don't post it at all

That's what I originally thought, but then Jerry said that the bidding on the better one of the two started at about £4k - not sure what happened after that.  

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

You say that but it took 160 years for people to spot it in the first place, so I would say yes, people are unobservant. Now that it's a known variety with a couple of sales, including one through an auction house, I think we will definitely see more surfacing in the near future.

 

I can imagine a scenario during the times that the VIGTORIA's were circulating where the overwhelming majority of people would barely glance at them, much as with today's circulating coins. Maybe the odd person, idly musing, noticed it, thought it was an error, and then thought no more about it. It's only since demonetisation (sp), mass melting down of the worn out residue, and increased collector awareness, that we've started to look out for these things. I agree with you, Matt, that quite a few more will emerge in the near future - just as happened with 1863 die No under date.

    

[secret santa]

33 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

That's what I originally thought, but then Jerry said that the bidding on the better one of the two started at about £4k - not sure what happened after that.  

Stephen Locket always starts a lot with the phrase "£x is bid" when in fact it's often the reserve price or one bid below, which has actually NOT been bid, but he's looking for a bid at or above reserve. I was originally under the impression that a lot had been sold at the quoted price when I first observed it only to find that it was unsold.

[VickySilver]

That crosslet '64 pulled an outrageous price IMO, and really would not want it at the same price as a superior specimen without tonnage figures SCRATCHED into it. Really, so what. I fail to see the significance of it, but I suppose to each his own. Obviously there was more than one interested in it.

[1949threepence]

On 3/7/2017 at 5:39 PM, VickySilver said:

That crosslet '64 pulled an outrageous price IMO, and really would not want it at the same price as a superior specimen without tonnage figures SCRATCHED into it. Really, so what. I fail to see the significance of it, but I suppose to each his own. Obviously there was more than one interested in it.

Yes. On its own, a crosslet in that condition might be expected to get £2500, +/- £300. So £9k for one with the tonnage inscriptions, does seem a bit high at first glance. However, thinking about it, I can kind of relate to what the buyer was thinking, given the rarity of commercially available specimens of this type. With specific regard to pennies, Gouby records 20 in existence. Of those,12 are in the British Museum, leaving 8 theoretically available, including all three 1864's. The current whereabouts of these 8 - apart from the one just sold - is vague to say the least. One, the 1867 (582/369), originally attributed to Henry Garside about 1925, has not been traced, leaving 7.

So when this 1864 specimen (239/136) became available, it was always going to go for a big price. Consider the rarity, and the almost "once in a blue Moon" nature of one being offered for auction, and you can see why there would be intense competition, or at any rate, someone willing to pay a substantial price tag.            

Edited March 9, 2017 by 1949threepence

[PWA 1967]

An 1867 also sold at LCA for £9 K.

[1949threepence]

17 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

An 1867 also sold at LCA for £9 K.

Indeed so, Pete.

 

[Rob]

I wish I had won the two in the Adams sale. Underbidder on both.

[1949threepence]

53 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

An 1867 also sold at LCA for £9 K.

 

42 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Indeed so, Pete.

 

Actually, on that 1867 you mention, Pete, quite apart from the obvious tonnage inscription, there is also an odd feature on the reverse. It's a straight bar, rising at a 45 degree angle between the base of the lighthouse and Britannia's shield.

link

   

[PWA 1967]

Well spotted Mike 

[VickySilver]

I'd feel differently if it was into THE DIE, but in reality is post minting damage that IMHO just not significant enough. Good for a dealer if he has a next buyer on the hook. 

[alfnail]

Anyone got one of these?

[azda]

On 3/9/2017 at 11:30 PM, 1949threepence said:

Yes. On its own, a crosslet in that condition might be expected to get £2500, +/- £300. So £9k for one with the tonnage inscriptions, does seem a bit high at first glance. However, thinking about it, I can kind of relate to what the buyer was thinking, given the rarity of commercially available specimens of this type. With specific regard to pennies, Gouby records 20 in existence. Of those,12 are in the British Museum, leaving 8 theoretically available, including all three 1864's. The current whereabouts of these 8 - apart from the one just sold - is vague to say the least. One, the 1867 (582/369), originally attributed to Henry Garside about 1925, has not been traced, leaving 7.

So when this 1864 specimen (239/136) became available, it was always going to go for a big price. Consider the rarity, and the almost "once in a blue Moon" nature of one being offered for auction, and you can see why there would be intense competition, or at any rate, someone willing to pay a substantial price tag.            

I wonder if the BM bought it.........Unless someone knows differently.

[VickySilver]

I still say RIDICULOUS and still post minting damage no matter how it is couched. For that money, there should at least be a DNA traceable bit of Victoria spittle on the coin!

[1949threepence]

5 hours ago, alfnail said:

Anyone got one of these?

No, that's an interesting one, Ian. Looks like a bit has been added on.

Metal flaw of some description?

 

[1949threepence]

3 hours ago, azda said:

I wonder if the BM bought it.........Unless someone knows differently.

That's a good point, actually. Quite possible.

[Rob]

2 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

No, that's an interesting one, Ian. Looks like a bit has been added on.

Metal flaw of some description?

 

I would say the 2 has been initially punched in the incorrect position and adjusted after the first blow. Don't forget the last digit would always be entered manually, hence the irrelevance of last digit spacing, unlike the difference between uniformly narrow and wide dates.

[secret santa]

I have a lustrous Unc example - it was mentioned in John Jerrams' book on the Bun Penny (top of page 20) as a 2 over 2 much as Rob describes.