1889 Crown - Did I Grade It Correctly?

[furryfrog02]

Based on the grading section on this side I believe this to be VF. I'd love to hear your opinions. Sorry if the pictures aren't that great. I'm working with a 9 year old camera and desperately need to upgrade! Thanks for looking!

[Michael-Roo]

Pretty close F.

I'd be most likely to say near Very Fine?

[Peckris]

Actually, VF is too optimistic, mainly because both obverse and reverse designs wear extremely well and hold a lot of detail. Years ago it would only have rated a tad above F but nowadays probably GF, or perhaps some might even say NVF.

Points to look at :

Obverse - hair above ear worn flat, lacy folds of veil indistinct, crosses on crown well worn.

Reverse - sword beginning to merge with horse's flank, St George's arm & breastplate well worn, brow and face wearing away.

It's certainly in a collectable condition, but these are readily available in high grade.

[Michael-Roo]

Actually, when I said 'NVF' I was being optimistic. Its very nice but, I think P is more accurate. I'd probably be happier with 'bold' good fine (now there's a contentious grading, if ever there was one!)…..

I have a 1673 no obverse stops farthing. Colin Cooke's notes say he knew of only four examples. None better than good fine. Indeed, the one in his collection is only near fine (IMHO), although he listed it as fine. I have two. One near fine (similar in grade to his). The other what I would describe as (here we go again) bold good fine. Who knows. Maybe one of the best examples surviving? Should I upload images?

[Michael-Roo]

Apologies. That was was sloppily written.

I have two 1673 no obverse stops farthings. One almost fine. One bold good fine. There. That's better.

Re: The 1889 crown: F. Again, go with P's grading. Nice coin, NVF at best.

[furryfrog02]

Thanks all for the input

[Peter]

For issue is a big problem for me.the US grading system is so wrong.

William 111 copper and William and Mary is so hard to get in reasonable condition.

Some of the early US coins are a shite.

[furryfrog02]

The grading between US and UK is different for sure. I've had a couple of people who know US coins pretty well give it a VF grade based on US standards.

[Peter]

A collectible Fine.

[RLC35]

The grading between US and UK is different for sure. I've had a couple of people who know US coins pretty well give it a VF grade based on US standards.

The main problem with U.S. grading of English Coins, is there are no good grading books on this side of the pond. Most Dealers here, as a result, grade their English coins, one or two grades above what they really are...doing grading by guesswork. Derek's book on grading has helped correct some of those problems...for those who have the book. The real problem is most U.S. Graders and collectors don't have Derek's book!

[Peter]

Well said Bob

Every one loves to up a grade.

If you look at Spinks/Seaby coins from the 60's....well

Spinks current book is for Full BU coins and not ebay NEF tat.

Look at Robs coins and get a feel for grade.

My eyes are failing but so are Mrs Peters as I snitch a few £50's out of her purse.

I still tell her CM are INCHES...I do have a 25cm Johnson

[Peter]

Well said Bob

Every one loves to up a grade.

If you look at Spinks/Seaby coins from the 60's....well

Spinks current book is for Full BU coins and not ebay NEF tat.

Look at Robs coins and get a feel for grade.

My eyes are failing but so are Mrs Peters as I snitch a few £50's out of her purse.

I still tell her CM are INCHES...I do have a 25cm Johnson

Whops A 25 cm Johnson and she would walk like John Wayne...well least taint her hair on our artex.

[Paulus]

Good Fine (GF) at best for me. This has nothing to do with the rarity of the coin, I try and keep that separate. There are different grading guidelines for early milled (1662-1815) as opposed to milled (1816 onwards), and certainly US grading differs from UK grading quite significantly, and often places more of a premium on toning.

I'm afraid to say that the coin in the pics would not attract many collectors as it is not scarce, and in that grade would not be worth much more than £20-£30

[furryfrog02]

Well glad I paid less that 20 pounds for it

Just out of curiosity - Do you know if TPGs like PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc... grade foreign(non-US) coins on the US standard or the standards for that country? Just wondering...

[RLC35]

Well glad I paid less that 20 pounds for it

Just out of curiosity - Do you know if TPGs like PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc... grade foreign(non-US) coins on the US standard or the standards for that country? Just wondering...

The U.S TPG Companies use U.S. Grading terms...VF-20...MS-61, etc.

[furryfrog02]

Good to know. Thanks!

[copper123]

attractive good fine reverse is pushing near very fine,reverse wear on obverse lets it down badly.

nice beginners coin though and i have seen many many in worse grade

[bronze mad]

Fine, or if i was trying to sell it then Good Fine there is a big difference between Fine and Very Fine, Very fines are still quite sharp.

[Peckris]

It's very close to VF in Derek's grading book.

[TomGoodheart]

The grading between US and UK is different for sure. I've had a couple of people who know US coins pretty well give it a VF grade based on US standards.

The main problem with U.S. grading of English Coins, is there are no good grading books on this side of the pond. Most Dealers here, as a result, grade their English coins, one or two grades above what they really are...doing grading by guesswork. Derek's book on grading has helped correct some of those problems...for those who have the book. The real problem is most U.S. Graders and collectors don't have Derek's book!

I agree, it's partly to do with experience in that if you've not seen enough examples to know whether a coin is prone to wear in particular areas it's hard to grade accurately. There was a discussion on coincommunity about an Australian coin and while there was a consensus from the Aus collectors, even looking on the ANDA website I just couldn't see it being as highly graded as everyone else (apart from Peter!) said.

As for hammered, well! I've seen overgrading from dealers in the US who should know better and also undergrading. The former I can sort of understand since the expectations for how much to pay for a coin from the 16-1700s in the US can be quite different than here and maybe you need the grade higher to justify the price! But the undergrading is, I'm sure, down to lack of knowledge about the more pronounced variations in strike that occurs with hammered coinage.

Probably best to stick to one grading system. Particularly when buying, it's probably safest to use the standards that are used in the country of origin. The problem then comes if you want to sell a say, US, coin in the UK. If your crown was a Barber dollar I suspect it would be most acceptable in that grade and command a decent price. Here, as others have said it's an acceptable beginners coin but could be improved upon without breaking the bank.

Comparing between international grading systems is a bit of a minefield IMHO!

[TomGoodheart]

For issue is a big problem for me.the US grading system is so wrong.

William 111 copper and William and Mary is so hard to get in reasonable condition.

Some of the early US coins are a shite.

I tend to think of myself as tall and handsome. For the issue.

That what you had in mind Peter?

[coinkat]

The US TPG companies that you referenced apply grading standards used in the US. The coin in question here would likely grade VF20 in the US. In the UK, I suspect a good Fine is reasonable. The standards are different in part based on expectations.

[Peter]

For issue is a big problem for me.the US grading system is so wrong.

William 111 copper and William and Mary is so hard to get in reasonable condition.

Some of the early US coins are a shite.

I tend to think of myself as tall and handsome. For the issue.

That what you had in mind Peter?

I'm mint Richard (after cleaning my teeth)

A couple of bag marks from Mrs Peter.