1807 Penny

[Accumulator]

Peck only lists two varieties of 1807 penny; currency and proof, with the proof being a later re-strike from a rusted die. I have an example of each and wasn't really looking further, until I found the coin below. The clear differences in the ship and the olive branch, from either of the other examples has caused me to wonder whether anyone has looked in more detail at the various dies used for this date?

[Garrett]

Very interesting AC.

I'm sorry I cannot add much to the discussion but my 1807 looks very much like the one you have posted, but it is only VF.

My 1806 (a proof) is a lot like that too, except the blob at the bow of your ship looks bigger.

Good luck with your research !

cheers Garrett.

[Rob]

Is the edge conventional?

[Accumulator]

Is the edge conventional?

Unfortunately I don't know yet as I'm waiting for the coin to arrive from the US. I bought it only because it was a good strike and very different to my existing example. It's in an early PCGS slab (MS66BN), so hopefully I can see the edge clearly.

[Rob]

Is the edge conventional?

Unfortunately I don't know yet as I'm waiting for the coin to arrive from the US. I bought it only because it was a good strike and very different to my existing example. It's in an early PCGS slab (MS66BN), so hopefully I can see the edge clearly.

Just wondering because there are certain things that look a bit similar to my 1807/6 proof halfpenny such as the partially cut beads on the reverse to the upper right, the obverse rim has been polished down to give a toothed effect - something Taylor did when refurbishing dies for his restrikes. The off-centre rim is another regular feature of his because the collar on his press would regularly open up leading to multiple strikes indicated by rotation. All little points which warrant a closer investigation. Finally, the 7 is misplaced. Check for a filled in 6 which might have traces in the image. I'm thinking along the lines of a trial for the restrike.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rob

[Peckris]

It does seem to have many 'proof' characteristics, but at the same time, as Rob points out, there are some weaknesses and inconsistencies, which would point to a Taylor restrike. Either way, it's a coin I'd happily give cabinet room to.

[Accumulator]

Is the edge conventional?

Unfortunately I don't know yet as I'm waiting for the coin to arrive from the US. I bought it only because it was a good strike and very different to my existing example. It's in an early PCGS slab (MS66BN), so hopefully I can see the edge clearly.

Just wondering because there are certain things that look a bit similar to my 1807/6 proof halfpenny such as the partially cut beads on the reverse to the upper right, the obverse rim has been polished down to give a toothed effect - something Taylor did when refurbishing dies for his restrikes. The off-centre rim is another regular feature of his because the collar on his press would regularly open up leading to multiple strikes indicated by rotation. All little points which warrant a closer investigation. Finally, the 7 is misplaced. Check for a filled in 6 which might have traces in the image. I'm thinking along the lines of a trial for the restrike.

Interesting, Rob. I see what you mean about the partially cut beads, though it's hard to be sure in the photo. The reverse also shows what appear to be stress lines, though these could be corrosion of the die? The enlarged photo below makes them clearer. The mis-placed '7' is the same as on my currency example. I'm going to have to wait for the coin to arrive to check it more carefully!

The ship has one enormous flag!

It does seem to have many 'proof' characteristics, but at the same time, as Rob points out, there are some weaknesses and inconsistencies, which would point to a Taylor restrike. Either way, it's a coin I'd happily give cabinet room to.

Thank you

Edited April 18, 2014 by Accumulator

[Danz]

Very different ship to mine. Interesting.

[Danz]

A pic to compare. Mine's on the right.

[Accumulator]

Interesting comparison Danz. The coin has now arrived so I'll have a closer look over the weekend, but those ships are nothing like each other!

[azda]

The one on the left also seems to have a thinner border with smaller teeth/beads

[Rob]

The points that made me think it could possibly be a Taylor piece are as follows:

The obverse edge is extremely worn, merging with the beads on the left hand side, but given that level of wear the remainder of the rims look really good and flat with the exception of the lump of excess at 12 o'clock. This is consistent with the rims having been polished. The raised lump on the rim is similar to that seen on a number of restrikes I have had in the past and the thin raised outer line on the edge from excess metal is consistent with Taylor's work. The collar on his press was in a dire state as evidenced by the number of coins seen double struck and rotated between strikes leading to a lot of ghostly legend remaining. The collar would frequently open between strikes leading to a series of vertical lines on the plain edges (normal for restrikes). This damage being done at the time ofmanufacture should not be confused with post-mint damage.

In the case of the 1807 proof halfpenny, the rim was reduced in diameter leading to a less than perfect circle coupled with traces of the original beading merging with the edge, and the new beads were partially cut before a decision was taken to accept the changes, at which point the beads were fully recut.

The ship is considerably simpler in design when compared to other ships. Taylor did not do a very sophisticated ship!

The jury is out on the lettering. The shape of the G is similar to those on the restrike halfpennies. On the Soho pieces the G has a rounded bottom profile, whereas the coin above has a small spur pointing down. Unfortunately the pennies are not so consistent with Peck clearly illustrating both types of G on Soho coins. The profiles of the E and other letters is similarly not as clear cut as on the halfpennies..

Counting against the likelihood of it being a restrike is the weakness in the obverse legend. I have long thought this to be due to a build up of rubbish on the die from prolonged use, with the worst cases rendering the legend almost illegible in places. As Taylor struck pieces individually for sale to collectors, there would be no reason to make a coin with this striking weakness as it would represent poor quality control. The exception could only be if an old die was used to make a trial striking.

So on balance I think it is most likely to be a Soho piece.

[scott]

incendenlty i got both an 1806 and an 1807 in that lot of pennies

both have the ship with the smaller flag

[1949threepence]

Talking about 1807 pennies, I've just managed to obtain this 1807 restrike proof, P1354, R98.

Plain edge and has the characteristic rust spots heavily concentrated on the King's face and neck. Of course the rust is largely due to the dies being out of use for many years, decades in fact, when Taylor bought them in 1848, possibly by default with some scrap metal, and started producing various "proofs" from legitimate, genuine dies, albeit somewhat aged, from his workshop in Red Lion Street, London. All really interesting stuff.

   

[Peckris 2]

lovely example.

[1949threepence]

24 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

lovely example.

Thanks Chris.

[Coinery]

Gorgeous, real head-turner that! 

[1949threepence]

7 hours ago, Coinery said:

Gorgeous, real head-turner that! 

Thanks Stuart.