1922 Penny, Reverse Of 1927!

[Accumulator]

So that's two more to add to David's list! Great addition Bernie.

It looks like the George V section of Freeman really does need an update.

[RLC35]

Made an error on the previous description of above coin. It should read Obverse 4 with reverse C

Bernie,

Do you know the value of the last know (or any known) sale of the 4 + C?

Bob Crawford

[davidrj]

No mention of this 1926 variety, Obverse 4 with this pattern reverse, not Rev B or C, or C*

You could be persuaded to identify that as VicOH rev C from 1897!

[davidrj]

No mention of this 1926 variety, Obverse 4 with this pattern reverse, not Rev B or C, or C*

You could be persuaded to identify that as VicOH rev C from 1897!

so if we call that Cb:-

Freeman and Gouby die identification now needs a complete rewrite

[davidrj]

No mention of this 1926 variety, Obverse 4 with this pattern reverse, not Rev B or C, or C*

You could be persuaded to identify that as VicOH rev C from 1897!

so if we call that Cb:-

Freeman and Gouby die identification now needs a complete rewrite

Bernies examples added in red

Edited November 22, 2013 by davidrj

[Peckris]

No mention of this 1926 variety, Obverse 4 with this pattern reverse, not Rev B or C, or C*

You could be persuaded to identify that as VicOH rev C from 1897!

so if we call that Cb:-

Freeman and Gouby die identification now needs a complete rewrite

Bernies examples added in red

Are you saying that 1922 is known with the M.E. and with TWO different reverses? I thought there was only one 1922 ME in existence?

On the picture above, is the reverse Cb shown with a small area beyond the rim included on the left hand side? If so, and ignoring that extra bit, I'm thinking that reverse Cb looks rather like the 1897 High Tide reverse - has anyone made a comparison between the two?

[Gary D]

[Paulus]

[davidrj]

No mention of this 1926 variety, Obverse 4 with this pattern reverse, not Rev B or C, or C*

You could be persuaded to identify that as VicOH rev C from 1897!

so if we call that Cb:-

Freeman and Gouby die identification now needs a complete rewrite

Are you saying that 1922 is known with the M.E. and with TWO different reverses? I thought there was only one 1922 ME in existence?

On the picture above, is the reverse Cb shown with a small area beyond the rim included on the left hand side? If so, and ignoring that extra bit, I'm thinking that reverse Cb looks rather like the 1897 High Tide reverse - has anyone made a comparison between the two?

All I've done is to add in the info Freeman gave in the article posted above, plus Bernie's posting yesterday

As I'm not likely to get the opportunity to examine any of these in hand - my listing is an Aunt Sally for anyone with more knowledge to knock down!

Edited November 22, 2013 by davidrj

[davidrj]

Cb looks rather like the 1897 High Tide reverse - has anyone made a comparison between the two?

waves to the right of the shield differ, a bit like the two types of 1896 halfpenny

really need an 1897HT with similar lighting to Bernie's 1926 Cb for a better comparison

probably all these designs were kicking around the mint as rejected dies since 1894,

[Accumulator]

Cb looks rather like the 1897 High Tide reverse - has anyone made a comparison between the two?

waves to the right of the shield differ, a bit like the two types of 1896 halfpenny

really need an 1897HT with similar lighting to Bernie's 1926 Cb for a better comparison

probably all these designs were kicking around the mint as rejected dies since 1894,

Is it my imagination, or do both the 1897 HT and the Cb have the 'double' rim on the left hand side of the reverse? This is quite a distinct feature:

Edit: In retrospect, I think the effect on the Cb is purely due to image cropping. I've also noticed that the position of Britannia's thumb on the shield appears different.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Accumulator

[Bernie]

One more to add to your list, 1922 proof, obverse 3 with Reverse C

[Peckris]

Cb looks rather like the 1897 High Tide reverse - has anyone made a comparison between the two?

waves to the right of the shield differ, a bit like the two types of 1896 halfpenny

really need an 1897HT with similar lighting to Bernie's 1926 Cb for a better comparison

probably all these designs were kicking around the mint as rejected dies since 1894,

Sorry David - I missed your previous post about the 1897 reverse. But it does show that if two people independently had the same thought, it might be worth considering? Meanwhile, can someone answer the question about there being TWO kinds of 1922 ME penny?

[VickySilver]

Bernie, is that pictured 1922 from the 1922/24 specimen set?

[Bernie]

Yes, Two 1924 proof sets were bought by Spink & Son (I believe). All but the pennies were dated 1924.

I also hear that these sets were given originally to the South African government to show the quality of striking by the Royal Mint. (Not sure this is true because we were probably already producing coinage for South Africa)

Spink split one set and sold individually. The second set was sold complete to a European collector.

I was offered the second set for £7000 but did not buy it as I could not find buyers for the rest of the set minus the penny !

Regarding the post above, As far as I am aware there has only been one coin found of the variety of the M E penny dated 1922. Die pairing Obv 4 with reverse C

[VickySilver]

Hmm, interesting bit there Bernie. I know of a set (whole in the USA) and believe it was sold by Heritage many years ago & still whole. I have seen the separate shilling, florin, halfpenny and half crown, all with the 1924 date as you say. Will try to obtain a picture of the penny if I can but it must surely be the same as yours.

I am in wonder at how so many proofs and patterns were squirreled away at Pretoria - they let that stuff go for virtual scrap when majority government took over. A "gentleman" in the East [uK] brought many of them over but ran into a couple of legal problems as I remember.

I think 7k might have been rather a bargain!

Edited November 23, 2013 by VickySilver

[Bernie]

Very interesting Vicky Silver, more information on the Pretoria connection and subsequent acquisition to the UK would be wonderful.

It sounds like the complete set has changed hands more than I have known. Good stuff ! see what you can find out. I was told by someone who viewed the complete set that my 1922 proof penny was nicer than the one from the other set. Would be most interested to see a picture of the second coin.

[Coppers]

Very interesting Vicky Silver, more information on the Pretoria connection and subsequent acquisition to the UK would be wonderful.

It sounds like the complete set has changed hands more than I have known. Good stuff ! see what you can find out. I was told by someone who viewed the complete set that my 1922 proof penny was nicer than the one from the other set. Would be most interested to see a picture of the second coin.

The set has been offered for sale on the Heritage website for quite some time now with a buy-it-now of $60,000. Sold for $13,800 back in 2004.

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=340&lotIdNo=24060

[Bernie]

Thanks for the link. Such a shame there are no pictures !

[davidrj]

Yes, Two 1924 proof sets were bought by Spink & Son (I believe). All but the pennies were dated 1924.

I also hear that these sets were given originally to the South African government to show the quality of striking by the Royal Mint. (Not sure this is true because we were probably already producing coinage for South Africa)

The Boer ZAR coins were produced at Pretoria Mint 1892-1902 (some 1892 also Berlin)

When the British occupied Pretoria the mint ceased all operations. British currency became the new legal tender. In 1919, the Mint Act approved the establishment of the Royal Mint in Pretoria, (which was a branch of the Royal Mint in London)

Union of South Africa coins struck at Pretoria start in 1923 (farthing to sovereign - only the gold has an SA mintmark)

Maybe London didn't like the quality of the 1923 strikings! ????

On 1 July 1941, bonds with the Royal Mint were broken and it subsequently became known as the South African Mint.

Edited November 24, 2013 by davidrj

[Accumulator]

Very interesting Vicky Silver, more information on the Pretoria connection and subsequent acquisition to the UK would be wonderful.

It sounds like the complete set has changed hands more than I have known. Good stuff ! see what you can find out. I was told by someone who viewed the complete set that my 1922 proof penny was nicer than the one from the other set. Would be most interested to see a picture of the second coin.

The set has been offered for sale on the Heritage website for quite some time now with a buy-it-now of $60,000. Sold for $13,800 back in 2004.

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=340&lotIdNo=24060

Whether it's really for sale, or just listed, I don't know. A while ago I tried to send a message through HA.com, to the seller, but never received a reply.

[Mr T]

Freeman's update:

Does anyone know where this was published?

[secret santa]

Spink Numismatic Circular - May 2010 Page 74/75

R