Let's See Your Copper Coins, Tokens, Or Medals!

[brg5658]

A new merchant token:

[marvinfinnley]

Proof 1770 Half Penny PCGS PF66RB. Nicest I've ever seen with color.

Edited November 3, 2014 by marvinfinnley

[Peckris]

Proof 1770 Half Penny PCGS PF66RB. Nicest I've ever seen with color.

Very nice! (What's your address? )

[Paulus]

Proof 1770 Half Penny PCGS PF66RB. Nicest I've ever seen with color.

Very nice! (What's your address? )

Oh yes, that's absolutely superb!

[Coinery]

There really is some awesome photography on this thread! Lovely coins!

[seuk]

Among the various odds and ends I've bought lately is this Irish Daniel O'Connell medallion which I suspect is really an unofficial farthing token (though not listed in the token book issued by Galata).

22.4 mm - 4.3 gr. - bronze or copper

A larger medal of similar design (and older portrait) was issued at his dead in 1847 however I would think this to be of an earlier date like 1828/29 when he was elected for parliament?

[seuk]

Another political token/medal Thomas Henry Hastings Davies MP for Worcester - seems he was elected first time in 1818 again in 1826 and yet again in 1832 - left parliament in 1841. So the token(?) could be from any of those dates.

24.6 mm - 5.1 gr. - bronze or copper

Edited November 11, 2014 by seuk

[Paulus]

I find all of these 18th/19th century tokens quite fascinating as antique items documenting social history, which is what they are!

[Paulus]

Arrived today, Middlesex Masonic token, seller's pics (yet to do my own)

[RLC35]

I got this medal (heavy, Crown size) last night at coin club for $5.00. Did I pay too much? Ha,Ha....

[Paulus]

What's the cheapest train fare to Indianapolis again?

[RLC35]

What's the cheapest train fare to Indianapolis again?

I don't think the train stops in Indy anymore! LOL!

[azda]

I don't think you can get a train to the USA from the UK either lol

[scott]

yea, replacement bus service only.

[brg5658]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

And, this is a later "knock off" of the Ibberson token by Taylor c. 1870. Also a scarce token, with around 200 or so extant. This is the 2nd example in my collection.

[Peckris]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

[Nicholas]

Supposedly there are over 200 Admiral Vernon medals ... This one in "Pinchbeck" a kind of brass with a few other alloys to make it more gold like.

[brg5658]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic.

If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction.

[marvinfinnley]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic.

If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction.

So it follows that if "The grade is irrelevant," then if this token were a gorgeous red gem uncirculated with full strike, you still would have gotten it for $70. I think you can follow the line of reasoning there that we all know that the grade is not irrelevant. The TPG only broadcasts it for all to see, quantifying it in a way that allows even unsophisticated buyers to appreciate the coin compared to other "scarce" tokens of the same variety. Grade, in most cases, translates to eye appeal which translates to buyer appeal which translates to higher price. Of course there are occasions where a technically (i.e., number of marks/hairlines/strike quality etc.) high graded coin/token's eye appeal is mitigated by ugly toning, very weak strike, etc. and the high grade doesn't necessarily translate to high buyer appeal. But in general, a coin graded by reputable TPG as an MS66 will sell for many multiples of the same coin graded extremely fine, no matter the rarity. This logic breaks down of course for extreme rarities where there are NO better coins than, for example, an extremely fine specimen. For most coins, the price differences are most extreme at the top end of course. So, for example, I wouldn't be interested in your token as it stands, even for $50, but if it were an MS66RD with brillian luster or gorgeous toning, I most certainly would (and so would many others).

I certainly don't intend with this comment to denigrate your purchase as we all collect for different reasons, and there is a segment of the market that would buy this token for $70; it's just a much smaller segment then that which would compete for it if your token were a top-end example, and there would be an even larger segment that would compete for it if it were in a slab as an MS66 (or higher).

TPG's exist only to allow a much larger segment of the market to participate in the rare coin hobby by packaging the coins as commodities. Those of us who are knowledgeable realize that this is an imperfect exercise as collector coins, with the exception of the modern mint products, are each fairly unique and difficult to compare. However, the rise of the TPG has allowed a huge number of people to enter the rare coin-high value coin markets with much lower risk that was the rule before the advent of the TPG, and that has been a good thing even for lower value coins. As the top end has gotten more expensive, the lower end has also risen buoyed by those how can't afford the top but feel the excitement generated by the high prices the top end coins bring and want to participate. As they say, a rising tide floats all boats. People who never gave a second thought to old coins as objects of great value take notice. They may begin to collect coins. There are exceptions of course to this for lower value coins that are very common, so my comments will always be debatable in specific circumstances. But of course, that's what makes for an interesting forum.

This whole argument is moot of course for those that:

a). Collect coins of low value or are experts at authenticating or grading their coins

. Never intend to sell their coins or worry about their spouses having to sell

c). Insist on a tactile relationship with their coins (implies low value coins or tremendous courage and care in the case of expensive coins)

d). would be offended that an impartial third party might judge their coins to be of lesser value than they themselves have judged them

>>Posted in good cheer<<

Edited November 18, 2014 by marvinfinnley

[brg5658]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic.

If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction.

So it follows that if "The grade is irrelevant," then if this token were a gorgeous red gem uncirculated with full strike, you still would have gotten it for $70. I think you can follow the line of reasoning there that we all know that the grade is not irrelevant. The TPG only broadcasts it for all to see, quantifying it in a way that allows even unsophisticated buyers to appreciate the coin compared to other "scarce" tokens of the same variety. Grade, in most cases, translates to eye appeal which translates to buyer appeal which translates to higher price. Of course there are occasions where a technically (i.e., number of marks/hairlines/strike quality etc.) high graded coin/token's eye appeal is mitigated by ugly toning, very weak strike, etc. and the high grade doesn't necessarily translate to high buyer appeal. But in general, a coin graded by reputable TPG as an MS66 will sell for many multiples of the same coin graded extremely fine, no matter the rarity. This logic breaks down of course for extreme rarities where there are NO better coins than, for example, an extremely fine specimen. For most coins, the price differences are most extreme at the top end of course. So, for example, I wouldn't be interested in your token as it stands, even for $50, but if it were an MS66RD with brillian luster or gorgeous toning, I most certainly would (and so would many others).

I certainly don't intend with this comment to denigrate your purchase as we all collect for different reasons, and there is a segment of the market that would buy this token for $70; it's just a much smaller segment then that which would compete for it if your token were a top-end example, and there would be an even larger segment that would compete for it if it were in a slab as an MS66 (or higher).

TPG's exist only to allow a much larger segment of the market to participate in the rare coin hobby by packaging the coins as commodities. Those of us who are knowledgeable realize that this is an imperfect exercise as collector coins, with the exception of the modern mint products, are each fairly unique and difficult to compare. However, the rise of the TPG has allowed a huge number of people to enter the rare coin-high value coin markets with much lower risk that was the rule before the advent of the TPG, and that has been a good thing even for lower value coins. As the top end has gotten more expensive, the lower end has also risen buoyed by those how can't afford the top but feel the excitement generated by the high prices the top end coins bring and want to participate. As they say, a rising tide floats all boats. People who never gave a second thought to old coins as objects of great value take notice. They may begin to collect coins. There are exceptions of course to this for lower value coins that are very common, so my comments will always be debatable in specific circumstances. But of course, that's what makes for an interesting forum.

This whole argument is moot of course for those that:

a). Collect coins of low value or are experts at authenticating or grading their coins

. Never intend to sell their coins or worry about their spouses having to sell

c). Insist on a tactile relationship with their coins (implies low value coins or tremendous courage and care in the case of expensive coins)

d). would be offended that an impartial third party might judge their coins to be of lesser value than they themselves have judged them

>>Posted in good cheer<<

Marvin, with all due respect, you are a bit off base. I never said that the grade was irrelevant for all coins or tokens. I said it was irrelevant for this particular token. Why do I say that?

1) I have been looking for an example of this rare token for a good decade, and they simply don't exist in your hypothetical MS66RD grade (and even if they did, I would never buy a 200 year old piece of copper in supposed "red" condition anyway -- I don't care for red copper and have found over many many years of collecting that RED copper is left for the label lovers -- not only is it chemically unstable, it is bound to eventually mellow and all that money you have wrapped up in the TPG hallowed RD designation is down the crapper). If this example was good enough for the W.J. Noble and Myles Gerson collections, then it is good enough for mine. Especially for the scant price of $70.

2) I mostly collect gem or high end MS graded coins. You can see that by my dozens of posted images and coins/tokens in this thread. I am not a newbie nor am I ignorant of the marketing, hype, and ravenous buyers of TPG slabbed coins in the USA market. I don't personally collect for profit, and I don't personally ever pay 5-10 fold for a coin that is graded one point higher by a TPG just because they say it it something special. My eyes are what guide my purchases, not the numbers printed on labels.

3) You happened to pick a token on which to make a philosophical point that I know more about than essentially any other provincial issue. I have 5 examples of the DH-342 Ibberson token, 4 of them in gem condition (of 300 or so extant). I own two examples of the DH-339 Ibberson token, both in UNC condition (of 200 or so extant). This DH-340 token is one of a handful originally minted, and probably one of only 30 or so even recognizable as such. Long story short, I didn't buy this token for the grade NGC gave it, I bought it because I wanted one for my collection. Whether it is a "good investment" is irrelevant to me. I don't collect coins for investment purposes. And, I intend to keep nearly my entire collection intact, to be sold after I die (which I hope will be about 50 years from now).

I don't have a problem with TPGs, but I use them as a tool for education and liquidity not as a crutch for blind purchases. I own over 700 slabbed coins currently. But, I never buy a slabbed coin for the supposed gospel that is the grade printed on the label. I buy coins I like, for prices I find fair, and that's all that really matters to me. We have had the TPG discussion ad nauseum here and on the other half dozen coin forums I read daily. Your points are all salient, but just irrelevant for the particular token in question -- i.e, there is no MS66 specimen in existence. I don't know what you call "ultra rarity" but when a token comes to auction about once per decade, it is only my opinion that matters when I choose a less than perfect nEF example (with other problems) for my collection.

Cheers.

[Paulus]

For me, both points are well made and contributors possibly coming from different standpoints.

BRG, your coin posts and photography are second to none!

For the record, I would like to share Peck's surprise at NGC's grade of AU details ... it's irrelevant how rare the coin is, or what damage there is to result in a full grade not being assigned ... the point is, in no way, shape or form could anyone consider this coin to be AU, surely? I think that is the point he was making!

Edited November 19, 2014 by Paulus

[brg5658]

For me, both points are well made and contributors possibly coming from different standpoints.

BRG, your coin posts and photography are second to none!

For the record, I would like to share Peck's surprise at NGC's grade of AU details ... it's irrelevant how rare the coin is, or what damage there is to result in a full grade not being assigned ... the point is, in no way, shape or form could anyone consider this coin to be AU, surely? I think that is the point he was making!

Anything that's not Uncirculated is "almost uncirculated" right? I don't have a big problem with the AU details description, because outside of the damage of scratches and a few gouges, the general level of detail that remains in the design is indeed AU by US standards and when one knows the general quality of these tokens in undamaged form. Which I think is the point that NGC was making with their label grade. But, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

If I knew the two little letters "AU" on the label were going to get the Brits in such a tiff, I would have left the label out of the image all together. I only include labels in my images because the images also act as a means of documentation of my coins as well.

Edited November 19, 2014 by brg5658

[marvinfinnley]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic.

If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction.

So it follows that if "The grade is irrelevant," then if this token were a gorgeous red gem uncirculated with full strike, you still would have gotten it for $70. I think you can follow the line of reasoning there that we all know that the grade is not irrelevant. The TPG only broadcasts it for all to see, quantifying it in a way that allows even unsophisticated buyers to appreciate the coin compared to other "scarce" tokens of the same variety. Grade, in most cases, translates to eye appeal which translates to buyer appeal which translates to higher price. Of course there are occasions where a technically (i.e., number of marks/hairlines/strike quality etc.) high graded coin/token's eye appeal is mitigated by ugly toning, very weak strike, etc. and the high grade doesn't necessarily translate to high buyer appeal. But in general, a coin graded by reputable TPG as an MS66 will sell for many multiples of the same coin graded extremely fine, no matter the rarity. This logic breaks down of course for extreme rarities where there are NO better coins than, for example, an extremely fine specimen. For most coins, the price differences are most extreme at the top end of course. So, for example, I wouldn't be interested in your token as it stands, even for $50, but if it were an MS66RD with brillian luster or gorgeous toning, I most certainly would (and so would many others).

I certainly don't intend with this comment to denigrate your purchase as we all collect for different reasons, and there is a segment of the market that would buy this token for $70; it's just a much smaller segment then that which would compete for it if your token were a top-end example, and there would be an even larger segment that would compete for it if it were in a slab as an MS66 (or higher).

TPG's exist only to allow a much larger segment of the market to participate in the rare coin hobby by packaging the coins as commodities. Those of us who are knowledgeable realize that this is an imperfect exercise as collector coins, with the exception of the modern mint products, are each fairly unique and difficult to compare. However, the rise of the TPG has allowed a huge number of people to enter the rare coin-high value coin markets with much lower risk that was the rule before the advent of the TPG, and that has been a good thing even for lower value coins. As the top end has gotten more expensive, the lower end has also risen buoyed by those how can't afford the top but feel the excitement generated by the high prices the top end coins bring and want to participate. As they say, a rising tide floats all boats. People who never gave a second thought to old coins as objects of great value take notice. They may begin to collect coins. There are exceptions of course to this for lower value coins that are very common, so my comments will always be debatable in specific circumstances. But of course, that's what makes for an interesting forum.

This whole argument is moot of course for those that:

a). Collect coins of low value or are experts at authenticating or grading their coins

. Never intend to sell their coins or worry about their spouses having to sell

c). Insist on a tactile relationship with their coins (implies low value coins or tremendous courage and care in the case of expensive coins)

d). would be offended that an impartial third party might judge their coins to be of lesser value than they themselves have judged them

>>Posted in good cheer<<

Marvin, with all due respect, you are a bit off base. I never said that the grade was irrelevant for all coins or tokens. I said it was irrelevant for this particular token. Why do I say that?

1) I have been looking for an example of this rare token for a good decade, and they simply don't exist in your hypothetical MS66RD grade (and even if they did, I would never buy a 200 year old piece of copper in supposed "red" condition anyway -- I don't care for red copper and have found over many many years of collecting that RED copper is left for the label lovers -- not only is it chemically unstable, it is bound to eventually mellow and all that money you have wrapped up in the TPG hallowed RD designation is down the crapper). If this example was good enough for the W.J. Noble and Myles Gerson collections, then it is good enough for mine. Especially for the scant price of $70.

2) I mostly collect gem or high end MS graded coins. You can see that by my dozens of posted images and coins/tokens in this thread. I am not a newbie nor am I ignorant of the marketing, hype, and ravenous buyers of TPG slabbed coins in the USA market. I don't personally collect for profit, and I don't personally ever pay 5-10 fold for a coin that is graded one point higher by a TPG just because they say it it something special. My eyes are what guide my purchases, not the numbers printed on labels.

3) You happened to pick a token on which to make a philosophical point that I know more about than essentially any other provincial issue. I have 5 examples of the DH-342 Ibberson token, 4 of them in gem condition (of 300 or so extant). I own two examples of the DH-339 Ibberson token, both in UNC condition (of 200 or so extant). This DH-340 token is one of a handful originally minted, and probably one of only 30 or so even recognizable as such. Long story short, I didn't buy this token for the grade NGC gave it, I bought it because I wanted one for my collection. Whether it is a "good investment" is irrelevant to me. I don't collect coins for investment purposes. And, I intend to keep nearly my entire collection intact, to be sold after I die (which I hope will be about 50 years from now).

I don't have a problem with TPGs, but I use them as a tool for education and liquidity not as a crutch for blind purchases. I own over 700 slabbed coins currently. But, I never buy a slabbed coin for the supposed gospel that is the grade printed on the label. I buy coins I like, for prices I find fair, and that's all that really matters to me. We have had the TPG discussion ad nauseum here and on the other half dozen coin forums I read daily. Your points are all salient, but just irrelevant for the particular token in question -- i.e, there is no MS66 specimen in existence. I don't know what you call "ultra rarity" but when a token comes to auction about once per decade, it is only my opinion that matters when I choose a less than perfect nEF example (with other problems) for my collection.

Cheers.

I meant no indictment of your own philosophy - I just thought I'd use your remark to illustrate a point of view that is largely lost in a forum where most folks don't seem concerned about the selling aspect of numismatics. I myself had never sold a coin until a couple of years ago, and that's over a span of almost 60 years of collecting. Now that I find myself with no one to take over my collection after I'm gone, and with a significant investment in the collection, I've had to consider the realities of marketing my coins to others. It's changed my whole perspective. I've learned that selling is MUCH more difficult than buying, that is, if one is trying to maximize the value of the collection. So enjoy your collecting - that's really the fundamental goal.

[Peckris]

A couple new tokens.

The first is a very difficult token to find, as is evidenced by this being the former W.J. Noble specimen, yet it is in rather "rough" shape.

Interesting ... but AU ??? Who are they trying to kid? Not even remotely EF, not even allowing for the differences between UK and US grades!

The grade is irrelevant. The scarcity of the token is far more important. Some of you fellows seem to care more about what the TPGs in the USA put on the label than some of the folks over on this side of the pond. I bought the token because it is extremely rare, and it wasn't even noted that it was the Noble specimen. It sold for $290 back in 1998, I purchased it 16 years later for $70. The plastic and grade were not what I was looking at. I purchased the token...not the plastic.

If you must know, it was called Nearly extremely fine and extremely rare. in the 1998 Noble auction.

You seem to think my post was an attack on you and your purchase. It clearly and obviously was not. It was simply an exclamation mark about the stated grade by the TPG, is all.

[brg5658]

You seem to think my post was an attack on you and your purchase. It clearly and obviously was not. It was simply an exclamation mark about the stated grade by the TPG, is all.

I have been around internet forums for long enough to not take anything as a personal attack. I was simply replying to let you know that I don't give two spits what NGC called it on the label. The NGC holder in this case probably actually saved me quite a bit of money. Collectors who only obsess with what the holder says, often overlook coins in these purple "details" holders. Had Heritage offered the token raw, it would have likely sold for 2-3 times what I paid (which again, was a pittance of about 1 hour's work wages). Nothing worth derailing a thread over to nit-pick TPG grading.