Die numbers

[Debbie]

I often see Victorian shillings listed as having “rare†die numbers. How is this known? Are there recordings of the numbers of die numbers produced for each year somewhere? Does the rarity of a number have much effect on the value or is this just another Ebay hype?

[azda]

Personally i don't see die numbers adding values or rarity. Rayner who wrote ESC gives the highest die numbers he found when writing the Book for each year but also goes onto state that their might be higher.

Some people collect die numbers, others don't

[Rob]

I often see Victorian shillings listed as having “rare” die numbers. How is this known? Are there recordings of the numbers of die numbers produced for each year somewhere? Does the rarity of a number have much effect on the value or is this just another Ebay hype?

There will be rare die numbers, but the only person likely to know them is(are) the nerd(s) who made a full listing of appearances in sales. It will not add value unless you can find two people both in need of the same die number. Date rarity versus condition will determine the price paid. Most die number collectors trawl through piles of dross given the potential size of a complete collection and rarely want to spend more than a few pounds i.e.melt.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Rob

[Debbie]

Thanks chaps for your replies. So there could be the potential to publish the first definitive study (and high grade collection) on die numbers and rarities for someone out there then!

I wouldn’t have any interest in this myself, however given that some collectors collect what would be considered to be minute and often hard to distinguish variety changes, I am surprised that it hasn’t happen yet.

I do find die numbers useful for helping identifying the various reverses as shown in Davies mind!

[Peckris]

Thanks chaps for your replies. So there could be the potential to publish the first definitive study (and high grade collection) on die numbers and rarities for someone out there then!

I wouldn’t have any interest in this myself, however given that some collectors collect what would be considered to be minute and often hard to distinguish variety changes, I am surprised that it hasn’t happen yet.

I do find die numbers useful for helping identifying the various reverses as shown in Davies mind!

Yes, that's a good point. I wonder if it's because other varieties have to be 'discovered', i.e. one can pore over coins for sale to see if one is a rare variety and pat oneself on the back if so, whereas die numbers are simply 'there', and there isn't any mystery to them? Just a thought.

[VickySilver]

More power to those pursuing such! I lump them in with the "narrow date" buns. Nice if people are interested, significant? Not in my opinion and just goes to show how absolutely looney those hypervarietal collectors are when here is a legitimate (also IMO) variety that gets no notoriety, or prices....

Ooops, let out my pet peeve on those buns.

[Accumulator]

More power to those pursuing such! I lump them in with the "narrow date" buns. Nice if people are interested, significant? Not in my opinion and just goes to show how absolutely looney those hypervarietal collectors are when here is a legitimate (also IMO) variety that gets no notoriety, or prices....

Ooops, let out my pet peeve on those buns.

You need to visit Room 101

Actually I can't quite decide about date widths. I collect those listed by Freeman, and a few others, but take your point...

[Peckris]

More power to those pursuing such! I lump them in with the "narrow date" buns. Nice if people are interested, significant? Not in my opinion and just goes to show how absolutely looney those hypervarietal collectors are when here is a legitimate (also IMO) variety that gets no notoriety, or prices....

Ooops, let out my pet peeve on those buns.

You need to visit Room 101

Actually I can't quite decide about date widths. I collect those listed by Freeman, and a few others, but take your point...

I think the wide and narrow date widths on buns are two very distinct reverses, as noted by Freeman, but unlike the micro date widths on OH pennies.

[Debbie]

And what about an unrecorded die number...

[azda]

And what about an unrecorded die number...

It would only be recorded if found during writing the Book. Rayner gives die numbers but states they could be higher.

[Red Riley]

More power to those pursuing such! I lump them in with the "narrow date" buns. Nice if people are interested, significant? Not in my opinion and just goes to show how absolutely looney those hypervarietal collectors are when here is a legitimate (also IMO) variety that gets no notoriety, or prices....

Ooops, let out my pet peeve on those buns.

Peeve or not, I do largely agree. There are genuine narrow/wide date varieties from 1874 to 1879 where the width of date is simply an 'ease of convenience' way of differentiating between two quite different reverses. Where it's the only difference... Nah, not for me.

[TomGoodheart]

I wouldn’t have any interest in this myself, however given that some collectors collect what would be considered to be minute and often hard to distinguish variety changes, I am surprised that it hasn’t happen yet.

Indeed.

"The Penny Red

The Penny Red was Great Britain's longest running stamp, from February 1841 to the end of November 1879. It was used for the standard letter postage rate of 1d and approximately 21 billion were issued. The 1d Red was a development of the Penny Black with the colour being changed from black to red so that the new black Maltese Cross cancellation could be clearly seen. This change was made following Rowland Hill's "rainbow trials" and "obliterating trials" to find the most sensible stamp and cancel combination to prevent people removing evidence of cancellation so the stamps could be re-used. Basically, his initial choice of very durable black ink for a stamp was a mistake! Until 1854 the 1d red was imperforate. In 1855 the watermark was changed from a small crown to a large crown. The first die was used to produce 204 plates, plus 6 reserve plates. A new die II was also introduced in 1855. This was used to produce 225 plates. Plates 71-225 have the plate number engraved on the stamp and these "penny plates" include the famous Plate 77 which you are unlikely to see outside of an exhibition as it is the rarest penny red and a good example could certainly fetch hundreds of thousands of pounds! The British Library has one on permanent display in the GB selection of the Tapling Collection. this stamp is mint. They also have a used on from the Fletcher collection too. The paper of the 1d red also changed from blued, to cream or toned to white (and a combination of the above!) between 1854 and 1858. A very great permutation of paper and ink shades were used to produce these stamps. The design was modified with letters in all four corners being introduced on 1st April 1864 and the plate number being engraved on each stamp. The reason that letters in all four corners was introduced was to significantly reduce the opportunity for people to reconstruct an unused stamp from the uncancelled parts of 2 used stamps. All 1d reds were printed using the line-engraved method by Perkins, Bacon & Petch (from 1852 Perkins, Bacon & Co) who finally lost their contract of 38 years in 1879 largely due to the fact that their stamps were printed in non-fugitive ink making their stamps more susceptible to being cleaned and re-used. On the 23rd December 1878 The Inland revenue gave 6 months' notice of the cancellation of the contract to print the 1d red. On the 8th May 1879 the Inland Revenue recorded that an agreement had been made for Perkins Bacon to continue to supply the 1d until 31st December 1879. In fact, the last plate was 225 which was put to press on the 27th October 1879 and was used for about 4 weeks, the print run ending at the end of November. This is confirmed by a letter from Mr Robertson of the Inland Revenue who comments on 3rd December 1879 "the printing of the Penny Postage label by your firm having come to a close." I suspect that all concerned would have been amazed to find that their "labels" are still enthusiastically collected and studied by people all over the world 150 years later! Incidentally, the Penny Red was originally called the Red Penny as well by collectors but that earlier term has now fallen away. "

People collect stamps by plate number. Why not coins by die? Same difference to me!

[Rob]

And banknotes by prefix numbers etc.

[Coinery]

I wouldn’t have any interest in this myself, however given that some collectors collect what would be considered to be minute and often hard to distinguish variety changes, I am surprised that it hasn’t happen yet.

Indeed.

"The Penny Red

The Penny Red was Great Britain's longest running stamp, from February 1841 to the end of November 1879. It was used for the standard letter postage rate of 1d and approximately 21 billion were issued. The 1d Red was a development of the Penny Black with the colour being changed from black to red so that the new black Maltese Cross cancellation could be clearly seen. This change was made following Rowland Hill's "rainbow trials" and "obliterating trials" to find the most sensible stamp and cancel combination to prevent people removing evidence of cancellation so the stamps could be re-used. Basically, his initial choice of very durable black ink for a stamp was a mistake! Until 1854 the 1d red was imperforate. In 1855 the watermark was changed from a small crown to a large crown. The first die was used to produce 204 plates, plus 6 reserve plates. A new die II was also introduced in 1855. This was used to produce 225 plates. Plates 71-225 have the plate number engraved on the stamp and these "penny plates" include the famous Plate 77 which you are unlikely to see outside of an exhibition as it is the rarest penny red and a good example could certainly fetch hundreds of thousands of pounds! The British Library has one on permanent display in the GB selection of the Tapling Collection. this stamp is mint. They also have a used on from the Fletcher collection too. The paper of the 1d red also changed from blued, to cream or toned to white (and a combination of the above!) between 1854 and 1858. A very great permutation of paper and ink shades were used to produce these stamps. The design was modified with letters in all four corners being introduced on 1st April 1864 and the plate number being engraved on each stamp. The reason that letters in all four corners was introduced was to significantly reduce the opportunity for people to reconstruct an unused stamp from the uncancelled parts of 2 used stamps. All 1d reds were printed using the line-engraved method by Perkins, Bacon & Petch (from 1852 Perkins, Bacon & Co) who finally lost their contract of 38 years in 1879 largely due to the fact that their stamps were printed in non-fugitive ink making their stamps more susceptible to being cleaned and re-used. On the 23rd December 1878 The Inland revenue gave 6 months' notice of the cancellation of the contract to print the 1d red. On the 8th May 1879 the Inland Revenue recorded that an agreement had been made for Perkins Bacon to continue to supply the 1d until 31st December 1879. In fact, the last plate was 225 which was put to press on the 27th October 1879 and was used for about 4 weeks, the print run ending at the end of November. This is confirmed by a letter from Mr Robertson of the Inland Revenue who comments on 3rd December 1879 "the printing of the Penny Postage label by your firm having come to a close." I suspect that all concerned would have been amazed to find that their "labels" are still enthusiastically collected and studied by people all over the world 150 years later! Incidentally, the Penny Red was originally called the Red Penny as well by collectors but that earlier term has now fallen away. "

People collect stamps by plate number. Why not coins by die? Same difference to me!

You've just answered an age-old question of mine about stamps! I must have some kind of colleptic virus, as that absolutely fascinated me! Blimey, Richard, you know a lot of stuff!

Edited October 2, 2012 by Coinery

[TomGoodheart]

You've just answered an age-old question of mine about stamps! I must have some kind of colleptic virus, as that absolutely fascinated me! Blimey, Richard, you know a lot of stuff!

Nah. I just remember odd things and have a knack with Googling!

[davidrj]

People collect stamps by plate number. Why not coins by die? Same difference to me!

I keep looking at 1863 pennies.................................................