I in BRITT in penny?

[josie]

Thier is a variety in 1911 penny in other site.

Is this is other way of looking for modified effigy seen 2, 1926 penny the R are different the other is thinner than the other?

Where it start and where it ends for now.

[Gary D]

Thier is a variety in 1911 penny in other site.

Is this is other way of looking for modified effigy seen 2, 1926 penny the R are different the other is thinner than the other?

Where it start and where it ends for now.

The 1911 penny with the I of BRITT to a tooth has no relationship to the modified image seen in 1926. The I to tooth is as far as I can tell a recent discovery and have only seen it mention on a website and as far as I'm aware it doesn't as yet appear in any literature.

I was talking to Michael Goulby recently about this variety and he personal only knows of about 20 to exist sofar so it could be quite scarse.

Anyway here is mine

[DaveG38]

Hi,

This variety is not especially new. It is mentioned in Michael G Salzman's book entitled 'A Handbook of Modern British Coins and Their Varieties.' My copy of this runs up to 1970 and from the looks of it its a mid-70s publication. Unfortunately some idiot removed the title pages, so it has no publication date. The ISBN is 0 9508457 0 1.

Interestingly, Salzman describes the varieties as 1) Hollow Neck, I of IMP to a space and 2) No hollow neck, I of IMP to border tooth. He also classifies them as Common and very common respectively, which is clearly at odds with Michael Gouby's assessment of rarity. Also, of course Michael Gouby describes them by reference to the I in BRITT, but as far as I can judge they are the same two varieties as Salzman mentions.

This variety is also reported in Collector's coins 1990 and 1998, but not in Collector's coins 2007 - not sure why Chris left it out of the later edition.

Hope this helps.

DaveG38

[Chris Perkins]

Ah so this is another name for the hollow neck variety. I'm not sure why I removed that. Probably because I wasn't convinced by the 'hollow neck' description and that such a description could lead to confusion. I'll certainly put it back now, with a better description.

[Gary D]

Ah so this is another name for the hollow neck variety. I'm not sure why I removed that. Probably because I wasn't convinced by the 'hollow neck' description and that such a description could lead to confusion. I'll certainly put it back now, with a better description.

In my defence I will say that the usual 1911 i.e. I to gap is reasonable common in the hollow neck type and is what I take it that Freeman mentions. I have been looking through 1911s for a couple of years now with out finding an I to tooth and ended up buying one. Also I of IMP is to bead so I think we have three varieties here. I do hate it when this happens, another one to look for

Edited December 20, 2007 by Gary D

[josie]

Thank you for the reply.

Good start 1911 first in the series with 2 or more variety.

On 1926 ME I in BRITT it is on gap or to tooth,

It is listed in CCGB that I in DEI is to tooth in 1926 ME and I in BRITT follows also to tooth,since thier are already 2 or more varieties in 1911 on pointing of I in BRITT,thier is a posibility on ME that I in BRITT is to gap or easy way of looking normal fron ME or other varieties that may come inbetween pointing from the start of the letters,colon up to the end of the letters.

If 1926 penny is I in BRITT to tooth it is ME?

[Red Riley]

Thank you for the reply.

Good start 1911 first in the series with 2 or more variety.

On 1926 ME I in BRITT it is on gap or to tooth,

It is listed in CCGB that I in DEI is to tooth in 1926 ME and I in BRITT follows also to tooth,since thier are already 2 or more varieties in 1911 on pointing of I in BRITT,thier is a posibility on ME that I in BRITT is to gap or easy way of looking normal fron ME or other varieties that may come inbetween pointing from the start of the letters,colon up to the end of the letters.

If 1926 penny is I in BRITT to tooth it is ME?

Well my 26 ME is 'I' to gap and ordinary effigy is 'I' to tooth. Not certain whether that helps or not.

[RLC35]

Red,

I have two 1926 ME's, and they are both I to the gap.

Bob C.

[custard1966]

Thier is a variety in 1911 penny in other site.

Is this is other way of looking for modified effigy seen 2, 1926 penny the R are different the other is thinner than the other?

Where it start and where it ends for now.

A good way to distinguish the 1926 ME is to look at the colon dots between GRA and BRITT

on the normal reverse the colon is midway between 'A' and 'B'

on the modified effigy the colon is clearly closer to 'A' than 'B'

this is helpful when the coin is worn

[DaveG38]

Gary,

I'm now confused and bewildered (my usual state). Are you saying that there is the common flat neck variety of 1911, plus two hollow necks, one of which is rare and the other much more common? If so, do you know how these correlate to the I of IMP types mentioned by Salzman? My guess is that these are the same as two of the types above, just identified in different ways.

Or have I missed something here?

Also, my copy of Freeman (1985) mentions hollow neck varieties on 1912 coins - anybody seen one?

DaveG38

[Chris Perkins]

I'm confused too! Can somone now list the 1911 varieties properly, and numbered from 1 - 4 or however many there are!

[Gary D]

Chris, I'm a little confused as well. There would appear to be at least two varities of 1911 penny.

1. Normal full neck, I of BRITT to gap and I of IMP to right of bead.

2. Hollow neck, I of BRITT to bead and I of IMP to bead.

Freeman quotes "that a common feature of 1911 and 1912 coins is what appears as a hollow in the neck" Now I wonder if he picked this up from somewhere without seeing an example in the hand as I'm sure he would have noticed the I to bead and listed two varieties for 1911. Unless of course he did see both a full neck and hollow neck of the common I of BRITT to gap variety. If this was the case he would more likely just leave the note that he did.

Now all of this is at odds with Salzman

"Salzman describes the varieties as 1) Hollow Neck, I of IMP to a space and 2) No hollow neck, I of IMP to border tooth" Unless DaveG38 has misquoted Salzman.

As to rarety, as i said in my earlier post I've been looking for this variety for a good couple of years now which to me suggests they are less than common. I would be interesting in what RBC has to say if he reads these posts has to say as he seems to know his subjuct.

Gary

[AardHawk]

You all had me excited there for a moment!

There are only two varieties of 1911 penny.

1. 1A 180 bt. I of BRITT right of bt (Hollow neck). I of IMP to bt.

2. 2A 181 bt. GRA: BRITT colon to gap & closer to A. IMP: colon to bt.

I of BRITT to gap (Rounded neck). I of IMP right of bt.

The "Hollow Neck" variety has been known about at least as early as the lat 1960s. This variety is also common to other 1911 coinage.

As to rarity, Salzman rates it as Common (1,000,001 - 3,000,000) where as V.R.Court from his survey of £9,000 worth of pennies taken between 1968 to 1972 (see Coin Monthly Sept 1972 Major Varieties of U.K. Pennies 1902 - 1967 Part 2) says that of 4,542 1911 pennies surveyed only 37 had hollow necks and he estimated therefore that 188,000 had been minted. This would suggest that these were the product of two obverse dies. This feature was then incorporated in coinage from 1913 onwards.

DaveG38, for your info, my copy of Salzman which is a first edition was published in 1982, copyrighted in 1981, and according to the acknowledgement took five years to compile.

I hope this doesn't confuse things even more!

Edited December 23, 2007 by AardHawk

[Gary D]

You all had me excited there for a moment!

There are only two varieties of 1911 penny.

1. 1A 180 bt. I of BRITT right of bt (Hollow neck). I of IMP to bt.

2. 2A 181 bt. GRA: BRITT colon to gap & closer to A. IMP: colon to bt.

I of BRITT to gap (Rounded neck). I of IMP right of bt.

The "Hollow Neck" variety has been known about at least as early as the lat 1960s. This variety is also common to other 1911 coinage.

As to rarity, Salzman rates it as Common (1,000,001 - 3,000,000) where as V.R.Court from his survey of £9,000 worth of pennies taken between 1968 to 1972 (see Coin Monthly Sept 1972 Major Varieties of U.K. Pennies 1902 - 1967 Part 2) says that of 4,542 1911 pennies surveyed only 37 had hollow necks and he estimated therefore that 188,000 had been minted. This would suggest that these were the product of two obverse dies. This feature was then incorporated in coinage from 1913 onwards.

DaveG38, for your info, my copy of Salzman which is a first edition was published in 1982, copyrighted in 1981, and according to the acknowledgement took five years to compile.

I hope this doesn't confuse things even more!

188,000 makes it just an R4 so not too common then. That's about 1 in 122 for that year so it's quite possible to search on ebay for a couple of years and not see one.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Gary D

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Chris, I'm a little confused as well. There would appear to be at least two varities of 1911 penny.

1. Normal full neck, I of BRITT to gap and I of IMP to right of bead.

2. Hollow neck, I of BRITT to bead and I of IMP to bead.

Freeman quotes "that a common feature of 1911 and 1912 coins is what appears as a hollow in the neck" Now I wonder if he picked this up from somewhere without seeing an example in the hand as I'm sure he would have noticed the I to bead and listed two varieties for 1911. Unless of course he did see both a full neck and hollow neck of the common I of BRITT to gap variety. If this was the case he would more likely just leave the note that he did.

Now all of this is at odds with Salzman

"Salzman describes the varieties as 1) Hollow Neck, I of IMP to a space and 2) No hollow neck, I of IMP to border tooth" Unless DaveG38 has misquoted Salzman.

As to rarety, as i said in my earlier post I've been looking for this variety for a good couple of years now which to me suggests they are less than common. I would be interesting in what RBC has to say if he reads these posts has to say as he seems to know this subject.

Gary

HI,

Sorry, I've been offline a lot the past few weeks.... My friends daughter is in the hospital, and I've been spending a LOT of time there...... We're hoping for the best and are being very optimistic....

That being said, I only know of the 2 basic types of 1911 pennies..... The I to Gap and the I to Tooth..... I've owned 3 of them, this being my current specimen... The other 2 being a VF and a VG (US standard)...

Although I would NOT consider it a RARE variety, it is certainly scarce, and it does command a premium.......

Edited December 31, 2007 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[josie]

Thank you,Thats a lot of info.

Is Thier no other minor variety on 1911 I in BRITT pt to tooth.

Like the pointing of I in DEI or colon : after GRACIA or I of IMP or it does not matter?

dont have that kind of coin,maybe others have several can compare to others.

[Gary D]

Thank you,Thats a lot of info.

Is Thier no other minor variety on 1911 I in BRITT pt to tooth.

Like the pointing of I in DEI or colon : after GRACIA or I of IMP or it does not matter?

dont have that kind of coin,maybe others have several can compare to others.

The positioning of the I of IMP is just a secondary way of identifying the same two varieties.

[josie]

Thank you.

Just pushing,since thier is 2, 1911 coin I BRITT PDT hollow neck posted in this thread.

Automatic I of DEI PBTT and colon : after GRACIA PDT and I of IMP PDT in that order for hollow neck only as I observe in two 1911 coin sample posted in this thread.

I thought Garyd and BCC coin are both hollow neck but different pointing of colon after GRACIA and I in IMP or its just me?

Edited January 2, 2008 by josie

[Gary D]

Thank you.

Just pushing,since thier is 2, 1911 coin I BRITT PDT hollow neck posted in this thread.

Automatic I of DEI PBTT and colon : after GRACIA PDT and I of IMP PDT in that order for hollow neck only as I observe in two 1911 coin sample posted in this thread.

I thought Garyd and BCC coin are both hollow neck but different pointing of colon after GRACIA and I in IMP or its just me?

If you look at both coins long enough they are both the same.

[josie]

Thank you. GARYD

[davidrj]

This came today, so reviving this old thread

a 1911 1d Gouby obv X. Had a bit of a clean but better than my other two

all three have I of BRITT and I of IMP to border teeth,

I think I have looked at every 1911 penny on Ebay over the last 12 months this is the 3rd I've found, not convinced that the hollow neck exists without this alignment

David

[RobJ]

This came today, so reviving this old thread

a 1911 1d Gouby obv X. Had a bit of a clean but better than my other two

all three have I of BRITT and I of IMP to border teeth,

I think I have looked at every 1911 penny on Ebay over the last 12 months this is the 3rd I've found, not convinced that the hollow neck exists without this alignment

David

That is a very nice find David.

Well Done.

As I understand it, there is also a 'Hollow Neck' Farthing variant as well.

Does the same apply in identifying one of those as identifying a Penny?

[Colin G.]

Does the same apply in identifying one of those as identifying a Penny?

Rob,

have a look on my 1911 farthing page, there is an image showing how to identify the hollow neck

[Peckris]

This came today, so reviving this old thread

a 1911 1d Gouby obv X. Had a bit of a clean but better than my other two

all three have I of BRITT and I of IMP to border teeth,

I think I have looked at every 1911 penny on Ebay over the last 12 months this is the 3rd I've found, not convinced that the hollow neck exists without this alignment

David

You willing to sell either of those David? That's a gap in my collection, along with the elusive 1903 open 3.

[davidrj]

You willing to sell either of those David? That's a gap in my collection, along with the elusive 1903 open 3.

You have a PM, can't help on the 1903 I've only one of those

David