Ebay's Worst Offerings

[Peter]

I'm tempted....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1754-GEORGE-II-FARTHING-COIN-VERY-SCARCE-COIN_W0QQitemZ170460120742QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL?hash=item27b03706a6

[Guest reluctant_numismatist]

"Good Condition"

ROFL!!!

[Peckris]

"Good Condition"

ROFL!!!

Oh come on, be fair! It's not often you see the 18th century's most common farthing in such crappy condition, so "scarce" is a fair description

[Peter]

Now this looks interesting....an earlier listing.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170448567874

[davidrj]

I liked this one 1852 penny

[Peckris]

Now this looks interesting....an earlier listing.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170448567874

OMG! Someone paid £5 for it?? "A fool and his money..."

I liked this one 1852 penny

A coin with an identity crisis! A penny, a halfpenny, a farthing? 1852, 1952? FDC... or just F ?

[azda]

Not so much as a laugh, more of a recommendation, got this from a seller in Hong Kong, an excellent Lupe 40x Magnification, 2.59 with free postage, took 2 weeks to come but its an excellent and strong lupe with an led light, also comes in a small hard plastic case for anyone wanting a good glass.

Edited April 3, 2010 by azda

[azda]

Oopppps, for got the link :-)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/40X-25mm-LENS-JEWELER-LOUPE-MAGNIFYING-GLASS-MAGNIFIER_W0QQitemZ320510624304QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Jewellery_Watches_JewelleryBoxes_Supplies_CA?hash=item4a9fec0230

[Farmer Palmer]

Greetings gentlemen , i didnt know quite where to put this post so here it is Chinese coins

I would value replies on this regarding authenticity , if you brows the other items you'll see some of the highest quality ancient britain coins you'll see and for remarkably low prices..seller is in china , all the red flags are there , but are they genuine ?

[azda]

Greetings gentlemen , i didnt know quite where to put this post so here it is Chinese coins

I would value replies on this regarding authenticity , if you brows the other items you'll see some of the highest quality ancient britain coins you'll see and for remarkably low prices..seller is in china , all the red flags are there , but are they genuine ?

Personally i wouldn't touch a coin from China, am not saying the sellers items are fake, its just my personal choice. I posted something about a month or 2 back somewhere here about a Chinese coin factory, they even had PCGS plastic holders, so even those are under attack. The only chinese i would touch is a number 47 and 29, chicken chow mein and prawn crackers

Edited April 4, 2010 by azda

[Farmer Palmer]

I knew about chinese coin factorys , whats got me rattled is these are all British classics this guy was/is selling.If they are fakes , doesnt bear thinking about.

[DaveG38]

When you look at the quality, finish and toning of some of the Chinese fakes, its very worrying, since almost anybody, including dealers could be taken in, once the counterfeit coin has entered the UK collecting system. The 1763 shillings are extremely well done as I am sure are other types, including the rare US silver dollars.

Now, so far as your seller goes, it seems to me that there are two possible positions, bearing in mind the other coins he is selling. Firstly, it is perfectly possible that all his coins are legitimate. Certainly some of the more common, nice condition ones are and they would not really justify the cost of forging. The second position is that this seller has a fair number of legitimate coins in nice condition which he sells perfectly fairly, but in between he has a number of counterfeits and these are the rarer, more expensive types. In other words, he is deliberately hiding his forgeries in with other material, so as to appear a bona fide seller.

Which type is he? Don't know, but azda's advice about not buying from China sounds pretty good to me, especially when you consider that China seems to be the faking capital of the world.

DaveG38

[Farmer Palmer]

Thanks Dave , i should say i never had any intention of purchasing from China , whats got me running scared is i built up what i consider a stunning collection of British silver and for the most part in extremely fine to near mint state.You can imagine the cost involved,i purchased from the UK and USA but im forced to think , whats to stop western dealers or wannabe's buying the fakes and selling them from a "safe" location?

It not only possible but id bet its already happening.

Im teetoring on the edge of selling the collection and getting out while the gettings good.

[Peckris]

Thanks Dave , i should say i never had any intention of purchasing from China , whats got me running scared is i built up what i consider a stunning collection of British silver and for the most part in extremely fine to near mint state.You can imagine the cost involved,i purchased from the UK and USA but im forced to think , whats to stop western dealers or wannabe's buying the fakes and selling them from a "safe" location?

It not only possible but id bet its already happening.

Im teetoring on the edge of selling the collection and getting out while the gettings good.

Did you buy from private sellers, or from dealers / auction houses covered by trade associations (e.g. BNTA in UK)? If the latter, and you kept the receipts, then you have - if not provenance exactly - then a certain level of bona fides which would cover you when or if you decided to sell. If the former, then you can console yourself that the chances of every private seller you dealt with was offloading fakes, is somewhat remote, to say the least. Maybe the odd forgery got through, that fooled the whole trade in the UK and USA - and if everyone was fooled, that's also a kind of reassurance, in a way.

[Farmer Palmer]

Hi Peckris , ive lost track now where most came from , private dealers with receipts , coin forums BST's , various auctions including ebay.I think its a far more serious problem than realised.

For instance ive contacted about 10 full time dealers about this , guys ive spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars with and only one in England showed any level of concern.

I suspect this is where a lot of the "dealers" are getting the finer examples which are so hard to resist.The Americans have it down to a fine art now and can spot most US counterfeits from China albeit the most slight differences.It hasnt stopped the fakes flooding the market , ebay positively encourages counterfeits it would seem and i believe thats the contact point for unscrupulous people to obtain these fakes.

The way i see things is if the likes of myself a confessed coin addict and lifetime collector is ready to throw in the towel in order to salvage my investment before things are out of hand , whats the situation going to be in 10 years time ? i Cant be content to accept if it fools experts it should be good enough , that might change in years to come as it did with the US counterfeits.

[Peckris]

Hi Peckris , ive lost track now where most came from , private dealers with receipts , coin forums BST's , various auctions including ebay.I think its a far more serious problem than realised.

For instance ive contacted about 10 full time dealers about this , guys ive spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars with and only one in England showed any level of concern.

I suspect this is where a lot of the "dealers" are getting the finer examples which are so hard to resist.The Americans have it down to a fine art now and can spot most US counterfeits from China albeit the most slight differences.It hasnt stopped the fakes flooding the market , ebay positively encourages counterfeits it would seem and i believe thats the contact point for unscrupulous people to obtain these fakes.

The way i see things is if the likes of myself a confessed coin addict and lifetime collector is ready to throw in the towel in order to salvage my investment before things are out of hand , whats the situation going to be in 10 years time ? i Cant be content to accept if it fools experts it should be good enough , that might change in years to come as it did with the US counterfeits.

It's your decision - you might indeed be taking a wise course of action. The only way to detect good forgeries is to find another collector with an identical coin - it's the reproduction of the minute imperfections of one original coin used as a 'master copy' that is the tell-tale. In which case, eBay might be the best place to sell on.

As to the future, avoid eBay, avoid China, avoid auctions - find yourself one trustworthy dealer and rely on him/her as a source of supply.

[choolie]

Hi Peckris , ive lost track now where most came from , private dealers with receipts , coin forums BST's , various auctions including ebay.I think its a far more serious problem than realised.

For instance ive contacted about 10 full time dealers about this , guys ive spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars with and only one in England showed any level of concern.

I suspect this is where a lot of the "dealers" are getting the finer examples which are so hard to resist.The Americans have it down to a fine art now and can spot most US counterfeits from China albeit the most slight differences.It hasnt stopped the fakes flooding the market , ebay positively encourages counterfeits it would seem and i believe thats the contact point for unscrupulous people to obtain these fakes.

The way i see things is if the likes of myself a confessed coin addict and lifetime collector is ready to throw in the towel in order to salvage my investment before things are out of hand , whats the situation going to be in 10 years time ? i Cant be content to accept if it fools experts it should be good enough , that might change in years to come as it did with the US counterfeits.

It's your decision - you might indeed be taking a wise course of action. The only way to detect good forgeries is to find another collector with an identical coin - it's the reproduction of the minute imperfections of one original coin used as a 'master copy' that is the tell-tale. In which case, eBay might be the best place to sell on.

As to the future, avoid eBay, avoid China, avoid auctions - find yourself one trustworthy dealer and rely on him/her as a source of supply.

Hi peck, I am interested in why you say avoid auctions, surely the coin specialist auction houses should be pretty reliable? This is indeed a worrying issue I guess you can weigh and measure coins but if the fakes are done well enough it would be impossible to tell. Coins by their nature should be difficult to forge but if the Chinese authorities are going to allow the 'replica' factories to exist then we are in trouble.

[Peckris]

Hi peck, I am interested in why you say avoid auctions, surely the coin specialist auction houses should be pretty reliable? This is indeed a worrying issue I guess you can weigh and measure coins but if the fakes are done well enough it would be impossible to tell. Coins by their nature should be difficult to forge but if the Chinese authorities are going to allow the 'replica' factories to exist then we are in trouble.

I think if you go to the very top - Christies, Baldwins, Spink - there is far less likely to be a problem at auction: those places have good experts. But even respectable middle-ranking auction houses simply don't have the professional expertise. I'm speaking after attending many auctions at Warwick&Warwick : the local dealer, Peter Viola, always scrutinised the lots, and he was the one to go to on the morning of the sale and ask "Any problems?" Usually there were. So any provincial auction without a Peter Viola on hand, could contain some (I can't say how many, but I'm prepared to guess it's got worse the last few years) problem lots to snag the unwary. The auction houses act in good faith, but they often fail to spot expert forgeries from China.

[1949threepence]

Very difficult sometimes to discern fakes from the genuine article.

Quite worrying really. I often wonder if I've got some in my collection.

[Farmer Palmer]

I understand what your saying Chris , the problem with dealing strictly with recoqnised auction houses like the ones mentioned are that they are only ever likely to be selling the cream of the crop at very high prices.For the average collector looking to spend $100 or so on a coin , there might not be much to choose from.

Its that market the Chinese are hitting hardest i think , sure they have some of the rarest coins known going for peanuts but in the main its the key dated US silver thats alarming.

When i seen the Scottish hammered fakes ..well.. if i cant tell the difference i shouldnt be buying them,and thats a shame.Avoiding ebay is one thing but lets not hide our heads in the sand , it goes beyond ebay.

I have a question , whether or not it can be answered i dont know.Ive been under the impression that a replica coin must have that stamped somewhere on the coin in order for it to be sold in the US , im unsure of UK law on the matter.

That being the case in the US , and the law , why is it that ebay do nothing to halt the fakes coming in from China ? At times its patently obvious its very poor fakes and other times its high quality fakes.

Why havnt the feds stepped in and said to ebay sort it or get shut down i wonder.Its not just coins either as we know.

I realise shutting ebay down is unlikely but its one law for them and another for us , if i were to open shop selling fakes id be in jail before the day was out and my stock confiscated.

[1949threepence]

I understand what your saying Chris , the problem with dealing strictly with recoqnised auction houses like the ones mentioned are that they are only ever likely to be selling the cream of the crop at very high prices.For the average collector looking to spend $100 or so on a coin , there might not be much to choose from.

Its that market the Chinese are hitting hardest i think , sure they have some of the rarest coins known going for peanuts but in the main its the key dated US silver thats alarming.

When i seen the Scottish hammered fakes ..well.. if i cant tell the difference i shouldnt be buying them,and thats a shame.Avoiding ebay is one thing but lets not hide our heads in the sand , it goes beyond ebay.

I have a question , whether or not it can be answered i dont know.Ive been under the impression that a replica coin must have that stamped somewhere on the coin in order for it to be sold in the US , im unsure of UK law on the matter.

That being the case in the US , and the law , why is it that ebay do nothing to halt the fakes coming in from China ? At times its patently obvious its very poor fakes and other times its high quality fakes.

Why havnt the feds stepped in and said to ebay sort it or get shut down i wonder.Its not just coins either as we know.

I realise shutting ebay down is unlikely but its one law for them and another for us , if i were to open shop selling fakes id be in jail before the day was out and my stock confiscated.

Actually shutting e bay down is impractical, as they don't just sell coins. Surely the way forward is to target those sellers who are correctly identified by buyers, or potential buyers, as being responsible for passing on fakes, whether deliberately or by default. The problem in the case of very good fakes is that the buyer may not even be aware of the fact that he holds a fake, until he comes to sell it, or some dealer looks at it at a much later date.

I've no idea what UK law is in this respect, but it would be prudent to never buy from China, and I've noticed that many e bayers refuse to sell to China, as well.

I suppose the only true 99% safe guarantee, is only to buy slabbed coins from e bay. Athough I'd guess that 99% + of the coins on offer, are actually genuine ~ especially the worn ones lol.

[Red Riley]

Unfortunately, not buying from China is not the end of it. There is a lot of money to be made buying this stuff and then selling it on secondhand as it were. If a guy in London buys say, a Gothic crown from China (fake obviously) at a hefty discount to the value of the real thing, keeps it for a while, and then re-lists it from his home address, there is no evidence remaining that it ever came from China and the chances of the end purchaser being able to pick it as a duffer are quite low.

Very worrying.

[Gary D]

I understand what your saying Chris , the problem with dealing strictly with recoqnised auction houses like the ones mentioned are that they are only ever likely to be selling the cream of the crop at very high prices.For the average collector looking to spend $100 or so on a coin , there might not be much to choose from.

Its that market the Chinese are hitting hardest i think , sure they have some of the rarest coins known going for peanuts but in the main its the key dated US silver thats alarming.

When i seen the Scottish hammered fakes ..well.. if i cant tell the difference i shouldnt be buying them,and thats a shame.Avoiding ebay is one thing but lets not hide our heads in the sand , it goes beyond ebay.

I have a question , whether or not it can be answered i dont know.Ive been under the impression that a replica coin must have that stamped somewhere on the coin in order for it to be sold in the US , im unsure of UK law on the matter.

That being the case in the US , and the law , why is it that ebay do nothing to halt the fakes coming in from China ? At times its patently obvious its very poor fakes and other times its high quality fakes.

Why havnt the feds stepped in and said to ebay sort it or get shut down i wonder.Its not just coins either as we know.

I realise shutting ebay down is unlikely but its one law for them and another for us , if i were to open shop selling fakes id be in jail before the day was out and my stock confiscated.

Actually shutting e bay down is impractical, as they don't just sell coins. Surely the way forward is to target those sellers who are correctly identified by buyers, or potential buyers, as being responsible for passing on fakes, whether deliberately or by default. The problem in the case of very good fakes is that the buyer may not even be aware of the fact that he holds a fake, until he comes to sell it, or some dealer looks at it at a much later date.

I've no idea what UK law is in this respect, but it would be prudent to never buy from China, and I've noticed that many e bayers refuse to sell to China, as well.

I suppose the only true 99% safe guarantee, is only to buy slabbed coins from e bay. Athough I'd guess that 99% + of the coins on offer, are actually genuine ~ especially the worn ones lol.

Apart from the fake slabs now comming out of China.

[choolie]

Peckris are you out there? it's been quiet for a few days on the forum. I was just wondering if you would includ Bonhams in your list of Auction houses that are ok? they have a sale coming up soon.

I was also wondering if anyone knows if there are means to test whether a coin is fake or not? Weighing and measuring to start with, sure. But is it even possible to tell beyond this?

[Rob]

Peckris are you out there? it's been quiet for a few days on the forum. I was just wondering if you would includ Bonhams in your list of Auction houses that are ok? they have a sale coming up soon.

I was also wondering if anyone knows if there are means to test whether a coin is fake or not? Weighing and measuring to start with, sure. But is it even possible to tell beyond this?

Weight, surface detail, multiple examples with identical marks, incorrect die axis, edge quality, counterfeit references (of which there are many but people can't be bothered to read), quality of strike, sharpness of detail.