Baldwin Auction Today, Mixed Results

[VickySilver 775]

OK, Baldwin had an auction today and some interesting bits there. In my area (Vicky Silver - LOL) I upgraded my current 1842 2/6 by getting lot 587, the second of those on offer - the first not as pleasant...

 

To me the big surprise in milled was not necessarily the highest priced:

1953 Halfcrown (Lot 608) - this went for 1400 plus commission, etc.   Or 2100+ USD!    OUCH.

1860/59 Penny (Lot 638) went IMHO a bit low at 2600

1864 Penny, crosslet (Lot 649) I think also went at 2600. This piece decent grade but IMHO surfaces not that pleasant

"1551" (1851) Three pence (Lot 487) I think went at 3200. I don't care that another lesser specimen sold at 3600 some while ago, IMHO not worth the price fetched.

A few others as well. Anyone else with opinions about the auction?

[Menger 79]

46 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

1551" (1851) Three pence (Lot 487) I think went at 3200. I don't care that another lesser specimen sold at 3600 some while ago, IMHO not worth the price fetched.

It attracted a single bid and hammered at the starting price of £3000.  I am not convinced the one that sold for £3600 in the Portland collection (St James’s) was the lesser coin - but I do think it’s price (which started from an estimate of £750 -£1000) was a spike caused by two competing bidders (it was the spectacle of the auction).  I kept my powder dry today and hope to find a better example one day. 

[Rob 3,002]

Looking at the images online, I was put off by the reflective surfaces of most lots, giving the impression that a majority had been cleaned. Though given the number involved, I suspect that the images were over-exposed because when the description included a notable defect, it was hard to see it in the image. Adhering to the adage 'If in doubt, leave it out', I bought a handful of items which were not shiny in the images to hedge my bets.

[Kipster 157]

16 hours ago, Rob said:

Looking at the images online, I was put off by the reflective surfaces of most lots, giving the impression that a majority had been cleaned. Though given the number involved, I suspect that the images were over-exposed because when the description included a notable defect, it was hard to see it in the image. Adhering to the adage 'If in doubt, leave it out', I bought a handful of items which were not shiny in the images to hedge my bets.

This is a perpetual problem with several of the auction houses. Over-brightness on the images wipes out a lot of black spotting, particularly on the full lustre/colour coins. 

I picked up my third choice yesterday, but was really after the 1739 O over R sixpence, so if anyone picked that up and is looking to sell it on, I'd be interested, within reason. I wanted to bid more and would have, but I have my eye elsewhere and wanted to keep the powder dry.

I was surprised that all those lovely Halfcrowns didn't find a new home.

[VickySilver 775]

Not mentioned in the halfcrown series - that I like to think of to some degree as MIINE - the 1839 proof en medaille went for 12k plus the juice (or 20k + USD!). Wow!

[PWA 1967 1,841]

The 1953 Halfcrown i could not believe and then saw this crown sell at St.James.

Surely it will all end in tears as the prices seem ridiculous and makes me wonder if people are actually buying them.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by PWA 1967

[VickySilver 775]

That is an excellent point. I too wonder if these actually are selling - had not seen the crown. If you look around there are plenty of "Cameo 66" or even ULTRA Cameo 66 crowns of this date around. I got an actual Record Proof of this date from Spink many years ago for about 400 pounds and that was a lot. 

I think the coin indeed looks very nice and well preserved but was overpriced at 5% of this value. Actually I have the ordinary 1953 proof 2/6 in "cameo 66" which I bought for about 50 USD, and even the matte proof of this goes for about 3k, and for the crown about 6-7 k pounds.

[Kipster 157]

There have been some unusually high prices hammered by coins in a few auctions recently. Some which had absolutely no right to get anywhere near the figures reached.

Call me cynical, but it all seems rather suspicious to me. Perhaps someone's doing some laundry...who knows...

 

[pokal02 43]

 Who's spending £6k inc premium on a 1953 crown when they could apparently have got a decent 1860/59 1d (or maybe a Gothic crown) for half that?  I know the modern trend is to prioritise condition over rarity, but this just seems bonkers.  Still, each to their own. 

[copper123 1,352]

22 hours ago, Kipster said:

There have been some unusually high prices hammered by coins in a few auctions recently. Some which had absolutely no right to get anywhere near the figures reached.

Call me cynical, but it all seems rather suspicious to me. Perhaps someone's doing some laundry...who knows...

 

Whoever is doing the laundry is certainly not doing it in public LOL

[PWA 1967 1,841]

I must be missing something on these Crowns i know nothing about.

One was in the Baldwin sale LOT 538  PF67 CAMEO £500 and was unsold without a bid ,so why someone would pay £6K for one a grade less i have no idea 😀.

More i think about it and although still expensive maybe it was a 1953 VIP proof from the set and people knew the indicators which i have been told before are different ,like the Farthing and penny.

I dont have a clue about crowns or silver but the only explanation i can come up with and although still expensive seems more reasonable for a crown collector who has know interest in the rest of the set and will be very few sold individually.

Edited October 23, 2023 by PWA 1967

[Peckris 2 2,044]

We come back to that thorny old question: in a year when proof sets were issued, how do you distinguish a VIP proof? If different dies were used, then it's easy, but if not...

[PWA 1967 1,841]

4 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

We come back to that thorny old question: in a year when proof sets were issued, how do you distinguish a VIP proof? If different dies were used, then it's easy, but if not...

Its only easy if you know what to look for ,i know that sounds a bit daft but if you dont know the indicators like people didnt with the farthing ,your not going to find a genuine one ,unless its attributed correctly by the auctioneer.

Obviously thats IF there are differences which i have been told in the past there is ,although being silver never took any interest and would not know what to look for myself 👍.

If the St.James crown was one and people know it was who bid and wanted it for there own crown collection ,its the only reason i can think as to why it went so high as obviously rare with very few known ,especially not still in the sets.

Edited October 24, 2023 by PWA 1967

[oldcopper 276]

18 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

I must be missing something on these Crowns i know nothing about.

One was in the Baldwin sale LOT 538  PF67 CAMEO £500 and was unsold without a bid ,so why someone would pay £6K for one a grade less i have no idea 😀.

More i think about it and although still expensive maybe it was a 1953 VIP proof from the set and people knew the indicators which i have been told before are different ,like the Farthing and penny.

I dont have a clue about crowns or silver but the only explanation i can come up with and although still expensive seems more reasonable for a crown collector who has know interest in the rest of the set and will be very few sold individually.

Never noticed the tiny initials EF and CT above two of the shields before. Seems to be a general feature checking out other 1953 proof crowns, and expect it's explained in the reference books. Perhaps two people thought they were a special feature like the ON on one or two of the 1951 crowns, so went stratospheric!!

Edit - it's the initials of the two co-designers according to Sovereign Rarities website. I live and learn.

Edited October 24, 2023 by oldcopper

[mhcoins 95]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:02 AM, PWA 1967 said:

The 1953 Halfcrown i could not believe and then saw this crown sell at St.James.

Surely it will all end in tears as the prices seem ridiculous and makes me wonder if people are actually buying them.

 

This was apparently a VIP Proof - mis labeled by NGC hence the price. Its a Rarity R7 coin

 

[PWA 1967 1,841]

1 hour ago, mhcoins said:

 

Thank you ,do you know if the Half crown was also at Baldwin please ?

 

[Denarius 2]

Is there a definition of the 1953 V.I.P. proof set, in terms of the absolute contents, die pairings, etc ? Was it supplied in a special box labelled V.I.P. ?

What was the mintage ?

Or is it the stuff of myth and legend ?

[VickySilver 775]

This topic has been worked over before, and reluctantly I must agree that on some denominations (esp the penny!) the "VIP" status seems to be reflected in minor die differences. But the logic has in general IMHO not always been pristine and the RM also IMHO has not always used the same prep for proof or specimen sets and there are borderline coins that received some but not all the attention one usually expects on a proof of any description.

A couple of years ago, I bought from Heritage 1953 1/4, 1/2 and 1 Penny coins that were all in Proof 67 Red Ultra Cameo. They were and are beautiful and although not matching the VIP coin die characteristics seem to have received some special treatment.Also I have an ex-Norweb Proof 64 1953 penny not of the VIP type but was sold to them as a "special striking". Other examples I could point out, certainly.

A crown such as above in a "proof deep cameo or ultra cameo in 66 or 67" would be very hard to differentiate from a VIP at times and frankly the price paid for the above crown or half crown simply ridiculous.

As a footnote, many of Bull's listings of "VIP proofs" from the 1940s are questionable as proofs from the off years would be VIPs with some perhaps having more cameo effect than others.

[oldcopper 276]

1 hour ago, Denarius said:

Is there a definition of the 1953 V.I.P. proof set, in terms of the absolute contents, die pairings, etc ? Was it supplied in a special box labelled V.I.P. ?

What was the mintage ?

Or is it the stuff of myth and legend ?

DNW sold a 1953 "VIP" proof set in Sep 2013, but it was a special set, with a toothed border penny and a farthing not previously known in proof. Nice box as well. Apart from that I've never seen a set so described.

Edited October 24, 2023 by oldcopper

[Denarius 2]

LCA sold similar sets in Sept 2015 and Mar 2014 but no picture of the boxes.

[mhcoins 95]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:04 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Thank you ,do you know if the Half crown was also at Baldwin please ?

 

Hi sorry I dont 

[oldcopper 276]

Talking of which, it's been over a week since the Baldwins auction and they still haven't got their prices realised up. Be interested to see how that 19th century copper went.

[Denarius 2]

1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

Be interested to see how that 19th century copper went.

https://thestrand.com/auctions/calendar/list#/auctions/5cec2514-7637-4f39-b576-3be0db39d6ad?department=BDW&lot_status=all&auction_uuid=5cec2514-7637-4f39-b576-3be0db39d6ad

[oldcopper 276]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:19 PM, Denarius said:

https://thestrand.com/auctions/calendar/list#/auctions/5cec2514-7637-4f39-b576-3be0db39d6ad?department=BDW&lot_status=all&auction_uuid=5cec2514-7637-4f39-b576-3be0db39d6ad

Thanks. Some reasonable prices there - nothing went too mad.