Exciting new penny variety OR clumsy Patina-like fake?

[oldcopper]

This is coming up in the next DNW general sale - an 1859 proof penny, or is it? It's either an exciting new variety to rival the Medusa penny, or it's a fake. I'm going with fake, but perhaps it needs to be seen in the hand.

It's got poor blobby legends, especially the date, nothing like the real 1859 proof date. Badly drawn underneath of Victoria's eye, back fillet more bordered, under-fillet finely lined. Also the top of the ponytail isn't struck up properly plus part of her hair by the temple. These bits are struck up on currency but if it is a much later striking, maybe they wouldn't necessarily be.

The reverse, raised peripheries on the shield bars, different and wavy scale edging.

The weight is 19.96g; this is very overweight, some 1841 proofs are just over 19g, but I don't know any Victoria copper penny this heavy.

And it looks like a Patina-type copy. But maybe I'm wrong - perhaps some Mint employee was playing around with the currency dies in the 1860's.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=626&lot_uid=418653

Here's that recent London Coins proof penny for comparison:

 

and an 1859 currency penny for comparison:

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?lot_uid=399839

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Without any sort of examination, my gut reflex is fake.. No disrespect to the monarch, but I just don't like the way Queen Victoria looks.

 

[secret santa]

Clearly a fake.

[1949threepence]

3 hours ago, oldcopper said:

This is coming up in the next DNW general sale - an 1859 proof penny, or is it? It's either an exciting new variety to rival the Medusa penny, or it's a fake. I'm going with fake, but perhaps it needs to be seen in the hand.

It's got poor blobby legends, especially the date, nothing like the real 1859 proof date. Badly drawn underneath of Victoria's eye, back fillet more bordered, under-fillet finely lined. Also the top of the ponytail isn't struck up properly plus part of her hair by the temple. These bits are struck up on currency but if it is a much later striking, maybe they wouldn't necessarily be.

The reverse, raised peripheries on the shield bars, different and wavy scale edging.

The weight is 19.96g; this is very overweight, some 1841 proofs are just over 19g, but I don't know any Victoria copper penny this heavy.

And it looks like a Patina-type copy. But maybe I'm wrong - perhaps some Mint employee was playing around with the currency dies in the 1860's.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=626&lot_uid=418653

Here's that recent London Coins proof penny for comparison:

 

 

and an 1859 currency penny for comparison:

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?lot_uid=399839

For me, if it looks too good to be true, which it does, then it's a fake. 

[secret santa]

The reverse has 179 teeth - the true reverse should have 156 !

And the chainmail is more like the plain trident version.

And the obverse has 180 teeth vs 175 on a real one.

Edited February 14, 2022 by secret santa
addition

[terrysoldpennies]

The fake copper pennies all have perfectly proportioned and regularly spaced teeth which are all made on modern computerized machinery , where as on the genuine coins an adjustment was made to the tooth spacing under the third digit in the date by having a wider tooth .  

[Iannich48]

I hope that the forgers are not reading this thread, but somebody from DNW is reading it.

[jelida]

I agree with all the comments above, and have emailed Chris Finch at DNW expressing our concerns.

Jerry

[mrbadexample]

I wouldn't have been surprised if I'd seen this on the "ebay's worst offerings" thread. But at DNW? 

[secret santa]

Yes, that's very concerning when one of the top auction houses doesn't spot a blatant modern repro.

[jelida]

I have had a reply from Chris Finch, it was apparently ‘squeezed in late doors’ and he will make sure it is properly examined.

I hope this means it will be excluded.  I don’t know who deals with their copper and bronze, but it is certainly worrying that the expertise seems lacking. The Hiram Brown auctions were an example in this respect, with great rarities un-described in bulk lots.

Jerry

[secret santa]

I had already also emailed DNW but have had no response.

 

[secret santa]

It's still in there as Lot 428. I can't believe they didn't remove it as soon as they received emails about it. Their credibility is plummeting.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=626&lot_uid=418653&search=1

[oldcopper]

9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It's still in there as Lot 428. I can't believe they didn't remove it as soon as they received emails about it. Their credibility is plummeting.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=626&lot_uid=418653&search=1

They need to quickly stick on a saleroom notice saying it has been withdrawn. Presumably the catalogue had made it to the printers before they were informed. Hopefully they're not going to "double down".

I presume the faker changed parts of the design so as to evade the accusation of making an intentional counterfeit. I'd love to know its "provenance" and who entered it for sale right at the last minute - did they buy it in good faith (and then who from?) or are they trying to pull a fast one?

[Iannich48]

3 hours ago, oldcopper said:

They need to quickly stick on a saleroom notice saying it has been withdrawn. Presumably the catalogue had made it to the printers before they were informed. Hopefully they're not going to "double down".

I presume the faker changed parts of the design so as to evade the accusation of making an intentional counterfeit. I'd love to know its "provenance" and who entered it for sale right at the last minute - did they buy it in good faith (and then who from?) or are they trying to pull a fast one?

Just a very poor attempt at a forgery I think. Like has been said, it should not have got into the catalogue if anybody bothered to examine it properly.

[jelida]

They are much cheaper direct from China.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33037661091.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.74f4359e6fBpvU&algo_pvid=51167541-c1e6-4da6-95ee-01fb214ad011&algo_exp_id=51167541-c1e6-4da6-95ee-01fb214ad011-47&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"67398536291"}&pdp_pi=-1%3B1.18%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BGBP%3Bsearch-mainSearch

Jerry

[oldcopper]

9 minutes ago, jelida said:

They are much cheaper direct from China.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33037661091.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.74f4359e6fBpvU&algo_pvid=51167541-c1e6-4da6-95ee-01fb214ad011&algo_exp_id=51167541-c1e6-4da6-95ee-01fb214ad011-47&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"67398536291"}&pdp_pi=-1%3B1.18%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BGBP%3Bsearch-mainSearch

Jerry

Well spotted!! It is that coin with all its plasticky quirks. Latest offer £1.18. Could go lower!

That seller's page needs to go direct to DNW, this is what they say, memo to DNW:

• our store only sell for the copy coin,  so please do not treat it as the original coin,I sell these replica coins just to make your collection more perfect.     

Edited February 16, 2022 by oldcopper

[oldcopper]

It's just been withdrawn.

[secret santa]

For anyone who didn't see it:

[jelida]

3 hours ago, oldcopper said:

It's just been withdrawn.

Yes, I sent Finch a link to the Chinese one, he replied promptly thanking me for my help. And not for the first time, I should add.

Jerry

[Iannich48]

5 hours ago, oldcopper said:

It's just been withdrawn.

At last! 

[Coinery]

All a bit worrying, that’s for sure!

[SilverAge3]

It's awful so many modern counterfeits are flooding from China.