Paddy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Whilst we are in pedant mode, another one that gets me is "The amount of people...". Amount is used for things you measure by weight or volume, so unless we are taking a leaf out of the Nazi's book, we should say "The number of people...". 1
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 22 hours ago, blakeyboy said: ooh yeah! It is second declension, after all, which is what people assume about 'referendum', and come unstuck. 'Referenda' was often used by people who wanted to appeared learned Sorry - pedantic Classics teacher talking here... ALL those Latin words cited above are second declension, neuter, singulars ending in - um, so their plurals correctly do end in -a. Referenda, data, fora et cetera (yes, that is as well!) are all correct as plurals, albeit a bit pretentious I guess... Less pretentious are media, plural of medium, stadia for more than one stadium. I'll also throw into the mix criterion which is a Greek second declension neuter and pluralises of course CRITERIA. But many in the media (!) think that is its singular! I was just remote teaching my year 9 Latin class today and was teaching them neuter plurals by referencing all these sorts of words that we have taken straight from Latin! Here's a puzzle for you all then: one AGENDUM (a neuter gerundive!) means "a thing that has to be done", thus the plural AGENDA for a list of things for a meeting. But what do you say about the last ten lists of things to do for the last ten meetings?! How can you pluralise a plural?!!🤓😋
blakeyboy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 ah- yes- but 'Referendum' isn't second declension....it's a gerund- "The asking of the people", and, by definition, is singular, so 'referenda' never existed, and is used by people who want you to think they know Latin when they don't.... All that glisters.....:-) 1
Paddy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) I beg to differ on Referendum, which is a gerund, not a noun. It means "asking" and has no plural in latin. Snap - Blakeyboy beat me by seconds! PS: full discussion: https://www.dailyedge.ie/lets-figure-this-out-whats-the-real-plural-of-referendum-261522-Oct2013/ Edited February 26, 2021 by Paddy 1 1
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 For anyone who wants a bit more Latin, we could add some third declension neuters. So, OPUS as in magnum (2nd dec.) opus (3rd dec.) - or Baldrick's famously lovely "magnificent octopus", and very infrequently seen in the singular of course has the ultra common plural OPERA. Means "deeds, actions, works" etc. But then we've got the pluralising a plural issue again. Puccini wrote several operas ! So, by common usage I guess we have to accept both operas and agendas. DRAMA on the other hand is another Greek neuter plural, singular DRAMON, but of course we don't use that, and accept dramas as a plural. Isn't language great fun?! 😜 1
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 I beg to differ again - referendum is both a gerund (which indeed doesn't have a plural and a gerundive which does, and they absolutely are second declension. A gerund is a verbal noun and a gerundive is a verbal adjective and both nouns and adjectives belong to declensions in Latin, and I assure you they absolutely are 2nd dec !
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 7 minutes ago, Paddy said: PS: full discussion: https://www.dailyedge.ie/lets-figure-this-out-whats-the-real-plural-of-referendum-261522-Oct2013/ Sorry, I think a Cambridge Classics degree and 29 years teaching Latin trumps whoever wrote "daily edge.ie" !!😝😝😝 1
blakeyboy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Ha! I think this gerundive/gerund plural business is a minefield- agendum, datum...hmm...collective nouns? Oxford has recently spoken- 'referendums' yes, 'referenda' no.... Maths is hard. ...not 'maths are hard'......singular...collective? Mass? The 's' is as misleading at the end as the 's' in 'athletics'...... language is fun, and the rules are loose- quadrasonics, or tetraphonics, fine, but 'quadraphonic' is a bastard child.... Got to dash- I've got to get those jussive subjunctives out of the freezer....
blakeyboy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 6 minutes ago, Martinminerva said: Sorry, I think a Cambridge Classics degree and 29 years teaching Latin trumps whoever wrote "daily edge.ie" !!😝😝😝 Did you ever know Ken Cox?
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 As a gerundive, referendum means "that thing which must be referred..." like AGENDUM I was talking about above. So you can pluralise it to mean the things that must be taken to the people. That is the gerundive of obligation, as it's called. And oh yes it is second declension whether gerund or gerundive. The gerund has no nominative, accusative ends in -um, genitive in -i, and dative and ablative in -o, just like "servus" or whatever you learnt. The gerundive, as an adjective, behaves like bonus, bona, bonum, masc fem and neuter and so is both second and first declension depending on whether you're talking about the masculine and neuter (2nd), or feminine (1st). Here endeth the Latin lesson ! 😄😄
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, blakeyboy said: Did you ever know Ken Cox? I was at Cambridge (Churchill College) between 1988 and 1992. The name doesn't ring any immediate bells, but I did know a John Cox who taught at The Leys School, Cambridge. But guess you don't mean him? Indeed, let's get those jussive subjunctives out ! Really sad joke for Latin anoraks there... Seriously, though, I must go and do some marking now, but have had lots of grammatical fun today with you all! There does seem to be a proliferation of Classically minded people in the numismatic world - I wonder why that should be? Bye! 1
1949threepence Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, blakeyboy said: ah- yes- but 'Referendum' isn't second declension....it's a gerund- "The asking of the people", and, by definition, is singular, so 'referenda' never existed, and is used by people who want you to think they know Latin when they don't.... All that glisters.....:-) Say what? 1
secret santa Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. (my Latin "O" level).
bagerap Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes, that nice couple we met in Portugal 3 1
blakeyboy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 damn you Bagerap! Too quick! I was going to suggest I saw them on stage at Filey Butlins in the '80s....
Paddy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 The one I recall is "Caesar adsum iam forte, Pompeii aderat". 1
blakeyboy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Ceasar adsum iam forte, "passus sum", sed Antone... "Post toti emul esto", as my father used to say, before I realised that if you moved the spaces, it's 'Post to tie mules to'....:) 1
Paddy Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 My grandfather, who was otherwise very straight laced, sold me a long tale about a piece of pottery found in a dig inscribed "Itis apis pota bigone". Took me a while to spot the joke! 1
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, blakeyboy said: 'referenda' never existed, and is used by people who want you to think they know Latin when they don't.... Sorry to to labour the point, but just like whoever wrote thedailyedge.ie article has made you think they know Latin when they don't !! I think I perhaps do, on the other hand.. 😉 If you couldn't have referenda, then you couldn't have agenda, for they are both plural gerundives of obligation! Yet we patently do have the second, albeit used as a singular mass noun usually, to pluralise again as agendas by convention and common usage. I agree the first is pretentious and picky and myself will and do happily say referendums, for as was said above, all language is fluid and evolves over time always to become simpler and more efficient, but, trust me, it could exist and would certainly be second declension. PS: full discussion: https://www.dailyedge.ie/lets-figure-this-out-whats-the-real-plural-of-referendum-261522-Oct2013/ Sorry, I think a Cambridge Classics degree and 29 years teaching Latin trumps whoever wrote "daily edge.ie" !!😝😝😝 Edited February 26, 2021 by Martinminerva
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Paddy said: My grandfather, who was otherwise very straight laced, sold me a long tale about a piece of pottery found in a dig inscribed "Itis apis pota bigone". Took me a while to spot the joke! The best one of these cod-Latin things I know about is a graffito (oh, God, not another thread about singulars and plurals!) scratched into a park bench in Oxford : Ore stabit fortis arare placet ore stat which actually is sort of genuine translatable Latin, though it means nonsense, but the clue is it's on a park bench! Edited February 26, 2021 by Martinminerva 1
alfnail Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 MDCCCLX Denarius Libertus XIV LCW(V) Sub Pede????? 2
Martinminerva Posted February 26, 2021 Author Posted February 26, 2021 That is brilliant, Ian. Freeman to Libertus. Genius!
alfnail Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 Thanks Martin, knew I would find a purpose for that Latin 'O' Level.
Peckris 2 Posted February 26, 2021 Posted February 26, 2021 On 2/25/2021 at 5:54 PM, blakeyboy said: ooh yeah! It is second declension, after all, which is what people assume about 'referendum', and come unstuck. 'Referenda' was often used by people who wanted to appeared learned, rather like 'Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well' and 'stuff that dreams are made of' etc..etc....I don't worry any more- language evolves, but when someone talks crap with a smug look on their face I press the button marked 'launch all missiles'....:) Alas poor Yorick, I knew him HORATIO ... amazing how many people get that wrong! I assume that's what you were referring to? 5 hours ago, Martinminerva said: Sorry - pedantic Classics teacher talking here... ALL those Latin words cited above are second declension, neuter, singulars ending in - um, so their plurals correctly do end in -a. Referenda, data, fora et cetera (yes, that is as well!) are all correct as plurals, albeit a bit pretentious I guess... Less pretentious are media, plural of medium, stadia for more than one stadium. I'll also throw into the mix criterion which is a Greek second declension neuter and pluralises of course CRITERIA. But many in the media (!) think that is its singular! I was just remote teaching my year 9 Latin class today and was teaching them neuter plurals by referencing all these sorts of words that we have taken straight from Latin! Here's a puzzle for you all then: one AGENDUM (a neuter gerundive!) means "a thing that has to be done", thus the plural AGENDA for a list of things for a meeting. But what do you say about the last ten lists of things to do for the last ten meetings?! How can you pluralise a plural?!!🤓😋 Yes, the word criteria used as a singular (like phenomena) is almost as annoying as 'attendee'. 5 hours ago, blakeyboy said: ah- yes- but 'Referendum' isn't second declension....it's a gerund- "The asking of the people", and, by definition, is singular, so 'referenda' never existed, and is used by people who want you to think they know Latin when they don't.... All that glisters.....:-) 5 hours ago, Martinminerva said: Sorry, I think a Cambridge Classics degree and 29 years teaching Latin trumps whoever wrote "daily edge.ie" !!😝😝😝 It also trumps my degree in 'Roman and Hellenic Studies' from Birmingham University! But at least we were taught modern Greek by a Communist refugee from the Colonels.
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