1860 penny Freeman 14. LCW below foot.

[Martinminerva]

Been looking for one of these for ages. Low grade would be fine as long as the defining characteristic of the LCW is visible! Curiously, one seldom sees lower grade ones of this, most of the ones I have seen seem to be EF or thereabouts, or better. Wonder why that should be??

[blakeyboy]

Agreed- the only one's I've seen are way too costly for me.

I'd love one in F!

[Martinminerva]

Even fair would do me! But, yes, think I have only ever seen one in Fine or thereabouts, but double figures at the top end of the grade spectrum. Anyone fancy speculating a reason why - or have I just been looking in the wrong places?! Anyone care to post a picture of their lower grade one?

 

[terrysoldpennies]

Here's my one, I never felt the need to up grade it as it shows the signature very clearly.

[terrysoldpennies]

Obverse

[1949threepence]

Just scanned through LCA. In 17 years they've sold 6, 3 in more or less BU, and three in mid grade - like this one

You're right in that there do seem to be a disproportionately large number of very high grade F14 examples for some weird reason. I wonder if a stash was once found, ex bank and never circulated. Just slowly released for collectors.

Although that theory wouldn't explain the differing die cracks also found on unc specimens. If they were all together you'd expect the die cracks to be identical. Funnily enough we discussed this very thing a week or two back on the "More Pennies" thread."   

 

[Martinminerva]

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research.

I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

[1949threepence]

21 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research.

I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Martin, the only possible theory I can promote for the apparently low number of very worn F14's is that most collectors, pre melt, were simply looking for LCW under foot, and at that time, were maybe unaware of the other F14 diagnostics. Given that the F14 was a very scarce variety to begin with, and that the LCW is an early casualty of wear, it's entirely plausible that worn examples of the F14 just ended up in the melt - the higher middish grade examples from circulation having been squirrelled away over the preceding decades - and the earlier back they were removed from continuing circulation, the more likely they were to be not so worn that the LCW had disappeared. So I'd bet most of the mid grade ones were collected before 1930.

I hope that makes logical sense, although it may not be right. Not simple to find reasons as there are so many variables, and so much completely unrecorded. So it's a bit of a guessing game. Hopefully others will also have ideas.  

[Martinminerva]

Yes, Mike, totally see where you are coming from! Any other members have ideas and theories to add to Mike's selective removal idea and my pseudo-pattern conjecture? Also, I wonder if Freeman's rarity of R15 is accurate - seems rarer than that? Wonder if Richard has records of numbers known as part of his rare pennies website?

Perhaps there should be a forum competition for who can post a picture of the WORST but still positively identifiable F.14 😋😋

[terrysoldpennies]

I agree with you on the rarity, as in fifteen years of looking on Ebay I have only seen two , as to recognising it on worn coins , the rev. D and E can be hard to determine but the rev. E has the P in PENNY to the gap , on the D its to the tooth.  But without the signature showing its not really very collectable.

[jelida]

I think that this variety was disproportionately  collected from the day it was minted, in much the same way as say a Kew 50p of which there will never be many circulated examples. The LCW below the foot is quite a distinctive variety of what was already a novel new coin issue,  and if spotted would likely have been put aside by those that could afford to. The vast majority of those that continued in circulation would have become indistinguishable from other varieties of the date long before the popularisation of coin collecting facilitated  by easy access to literature such as the Seaby catalogue from the mid twentieth century.

Jerry

[secret santa]

On 2/13/2021 at 10:16 AM, Martinminerva said:

Wonder if Richard has records of numbers known as part of his rare pennies website?

I started to build a record of rare/scarce penny sales around 2000 and although I no longer record low grade F14's, I've just checked and I have logged 23 examples since then, only 2 of which were below Fine, and 1 NVF. I wonder whether the new bronze coinage was still enough of a novelty for the newspapers of the time to mention the signature under the foot ? As Jerry says, rather like the Kew gardens 50p.

[secret santa]

On 2/13/2021 at 9:21 AM, Martinminerva said:

Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Yes, he is. You'll have to work it out - a bit like The Masked Singer.

[Martinminerva]

Thought he might be!! Is he Badger, Robin or maybe Grandfather Clock? 😎

[PWA 1967]

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?lot_uid=316087

One from the Hiram Brown sale ,again they should of been catalogued properly.

 

[secret santa]

Those sales were scandalous (for Hiram's family) but great for collectors. Individual items like this one were recognised by collectors and realised their true value but the bundles were often under-described and achieved less than their value.

Hiram's lack of cataloguing contributed to this but make sure your inheritees don't get ripped off. Catalogue your coins !!!

[1949threepence]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2021 at 9:21 AM, Martinminerva said:

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research.

I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

I could see why you were interested given what sold last night.

[Martinminerva]

On 13 February 2021 at 10:00 AM, 1949threepence said:

Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Non-penny expert jumping on bandwagon... Just seen this washer on eBay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-Pattern-Penny-Freeman-8B-B-b-Extremely-Rare/224354401060?hash=item343c907b24:g:37QAAOSw29xgK9~l

I think not. I bet he saw the selling price of "The masked pennyman's" two genuine examples and has thought kerching... 🙂

[Peckris 2]

3 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Non-penny expert jumping on bandwagon... Just seen this washer on eBay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-Pattern-Penny-Freeman-8B-B-b-Extremely-Rare/224354401060?hash=item343c907b24:g:37QAAOSw29xgK9~l

I think not. I bet he saw the selling price of "The masked pennyman's" two genuine examples and has thought kerching... 🙂

"The coin is slightly worn"

[1949threepence]

On 2/15/2021 at 3:31 PM, PWA 1967 said:

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?lot_uid=316087

One from the Hiram Brown sale ,again they should of been catalogued properly.

 

You just wonder how they could have made such a schoolboy error. 

They even compounded their own ineptitude by saying "LCW under shield". Unbelievable.    

[1949threepence]

5 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

"The coin is slightly worn"

But doesn't detract.......

[secret santa]

I'll add it to my rare penny website tomorrow.

[PWA 1967]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:16 PM, secret santa said:

Those sales were scandalous (for Hiram's family) but great for collectors. Individual items like this one were recognised by collectors and realised their true value but the bundles were often under-described and achieved less than their value.

Hiram's lack of cataloguing contributed to this but make sure your inheritees don't get ripped off. Catalogue your coins !!!

I dont think any inheritees will get as much as the person who collected them if its a decent or high end collection with lots of coins.Most inheritees i assume just get told by the auctioneer that we will do a nice catalogue with some pictures and put prices that will generate interest and put them in as cheap as possible.They may be better off split up and run in a couple of auctions ,some sold privately ,some with high estimates and if they dont sell resubmitted , some slabbed ,descriptions altered ,some sold by dealers on a percentage etc.Rates / fees may be able to be negotiated or should be compared with other Auctioneers and regardless of what spread sheets the auctioneers may not agree with the grades or type / variety ,some may be cleaned and may just be to much for a non collector to take on board.They then sell the coins and take a big percentage off for all the work they did and time etc.

I am not knocking Auctioneers or the fees they charge ,its just to them its a collection to be sold just like anyother and the number of collections we see from a collector who has passed away means they know someone else will come along soon with another box.

I know the person who inherited the coins may well be glad of the money and happy they sold ,although that does not mean they could of got a lot more whithout the hassle.

Unless the death was unexpected IMO its better to sell the coins and leave them the money ,rather than the aggravation of a box of dusty coins they do not have a clue about.

I will use the 1860 F14 above as an example and know i would of got more than £600 selling it privately.

I remember a forum member telling me a few years ago " i will sell the coins myself before i go ,nobody will get as much as me " and if your reading this i believe you were right  👍

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by PWA 1967

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

i will sell the coins myself before i go ,nobody will get as much as me

Totally agree - I just need to know when I'm going to go. I'll add that to the stupid questions asked at Corona Virus briefings.

[PWA 1967]

27 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Totally agree - I just need to know when I'm going to go. I'll add that to the stupid questions asked at Corona Virus briefings.

We will all go Richard , some collectors wont let go of the coins though and literally take them to the grave which is obviously there own choice.

Maybe another option for the people who wont sell is to make an agreement with someone in the industry who they know and trust to sell the coins when they have gone and make the people who inherit them aware that they will help and hopefully maximise the money. Even if its just to put them all in one auction they will atleast get someone acting in there interests rather than just passing the box to an auctioneer.

If the person in the industry pass away first , they can always find someone else 😃