1875 F79 Penny

[secret santa]

I see that LCA have an 1875 F79 penny in their next auction, described as very rare. I have gone back through their auction archives and, indeed, there are not many examples. My own archive compilation has only 11 in total. Can it really be that rare ? Perhaps collectors could share their specimens and I'll decide whether to add it to the rare penny site.

[jelida]

[jelida]

It may be rare in top condition, though I doubt it would reach your criteria overall. Here are my two, though the second might already feature in your records having once been sold by LCA I think.

Jerry

[PWA 1967]

Yes i agree Jerry and like plenty others IMO should only considered rare in high grade.

[secret santa]

Thanks for the pics, Jerry.

I've taken a second look through auction archives and I've now recorded 16 examples, most of which are a decent grade, so it looks as though it may only be scarce rather than rare but almost certainly less common than Freeman's R13 would suggest.

[1949threepence]

 

Here is mine bought privately February 2017.

You may already have it, but If you do happen to want a better pic, Richard, let me know and I'll photoscape it.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by 1949threepence
uploaded wrong coin

[secret santa]

Thanks Mike.

[alfnail]

Here's my example Richard.

Looking at my past records I see that over the years I have sold 6 of them, none as good as this though!

 

[blakeyboy]

I look for them several times a week on Fleabay -  I've done this for years now-  I hardly ever see one, even in worn condition.

It doesn't suffer from the 'Collection Bias' that has flooded the world with worn 1912.1918/1919 'Heaton pennies, ( maybe 1875H too)

or BU 1901's (because that was the shiny one in the pocket of the person the day they heard Victoria had died) etc etc..

It's not spotted by non- numismatists over the years.

F79 is the No1 penny for me that seems to have it's rarity rating way out.....

Finding a really good 'un without paying over the odds for a selected one at an auction is proving impossible.

Mine is a nice GVF bought when someone didn't know what it was and put a BIN of £15.....that'll do....

[blakeyboy]

I think good ones are undervalued.

Another interesting thing is trying to find a nice VF example...you see a few in fine or worse, and a few in GEF or better.

The middle ground is not really represented...why..?

Is it because those are all in less valuable/less well funded collections, that, like mine, popped up cheap once, 

and won't likely be replaced with a better one, and appear on the market?

 

Rare in high grade, certainly, but seemingly very rare in the middling grades, if you judge a population by what appears at auction, which is, by it's very nature, a skewed resource....

 

Maybe one day we could all list our collection, with just F number and honest grading, and after collation,

a more accurate (maybe graphical) picture of what is actually extant will appear?

I know that the inherent 'Collection Bias' that reflects TODAYS selection, rather than an historic one, will be present, but it will hopefully be more of a curve rather than a curve with a dip in the middle?  It would be very very interesting....:)

[blakeyboy]

Or, of course, not list them, but send the list to a trusted member who can collate the lot....

[alfnail]

One day we may have to list (sell) them too.....if we are still around to do it!

 

[secret santa]

20 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Maybe one day we could all list our collection, with just F number and honest grading, and after collation,

a more accurate (maybe graphical) picture of what is actually extant will appear?

I have a feeling that there only around a dozen penny collectors on the Forum so we may not get a very representative selection ?

[PWA 1967]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:27 PM, blakeyboy said:

I think good ones are undervalued.

Another interesting thing is trying to find a nice VF example...you see a few in fine or worse, and a few in GEF or better.

The middle ground is not really represented...why..?

Is it because those are all in less valuable/less well funded collections, that, like mine, popped up cheap once, 

and won't likely be replaced with a better one, and appear on the market?

 

Rare in high grade, certainly, but seemingly very rare in the middling grades, if you judge a population by what appears at auction, which is, by it's very nature, a skewed resource....

 

Maybe one day we could all list our collection, with just F number and honest grading, and after collation,

a more accurate (maybe graphical) picture of what is actually extant will appear?

I know that the inherent 'Collection Bias' that reflects TODAYS selection, rather than an historic one, will be present, but it will hopefully be more of a curve rather than a curve with a dip in the middle?  It would be very very interesting....:)

Its easier IMO Blake to get as many lists as possible from Dealers and keep them .More coins of any reasonable grade will have been sold by dealers attributed correctly than anything else as the majority going in an auction have been submitted by a dealer or by a seller who bought it from a dealer originally.They also may not be of a value worth putting in Auction. Some maybe duplicated but even so its a guide as to how many of something there may be and in what grades from dealers who are handling a lot more every month than the few people who post on the forum ,apart from the last 12 months were it is harder for dealers to buy anything due to covid.

Over a period of time you can soon find out what is hard to find or plentifull and why i keep them all going back seven years since i started to collect pennies.

Out of interest i looked at lists for F79 and made a phone call yesterday and a couple more calls this morning as lots of sought after coins may be sold by dealers before they even go on a list.

It also means that even some coins that may be considered common are much harder to find than we may think as most collectors when they buy a coin dont look for that particular type anymore.

So over the seven years i have kept lists if there are hardly any on they are either scarce or sought after as sold straight away.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by PWA 1967

[1949threepence]

After a bit of research, I'd say the F79 was very scarce, but not desperately rare. Just looked at LCA - they've auctioned about 7 since 2004, most of them in the EF+ category, but one about VF, and one sub fine.  

I can only see two sold by DNW, including the Laurie Bamford specimen. There were a number of 1879's, some in groups of other coins, and most flagged up as F82's.

I gave up trying to find anything in Spink.

One sold at the Alderley, not sure of price.

Superb BU example sold at the Copthorne auction for £400 hammer and a streaky not nearly so nice specimen at the Workman sale for the same price. Apart from that, the average price for a high grade seems to be about £250 to £350.  

[secret santa]

I've maintained a record of rare penny sales for about 15 years but never included F79 - going back through similar records as Mike has, I find about 16 examples, of which some may be duplicates. It's an unspectacular die pairing and has never attracted any attention.

[1949threepence]

15 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I've maintained a record of rare penny sales for about 15 years but never included F79 - going back through similar records as Mike has, I find about 16 examples, of which some may be duplicates. It's an unspectacular die pairing and has never attracted any attention.

Could you make a case for <25 extant, Richard?

It's really difficult to know. Although from an academic point of view it would be interesting to see if, or how quickly, your database reached 25. As you say, there might well be duplicates in your count, as the same coins get sold and then resold. In which case the overall total could remain stubbornly low. 

Not a glamorous variety, and doesn't attract a lot of attention, but clearly the type is visible to the naked eye.

Maybe a bit like the F38 in terms of demand.   

[secret santa]

I've got a bit of time on my hands at the moment so I might create a page - it's simple to remove it from the menu if I find that it's common.

[blakeyboy]

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Could you make a case for <25 extant, Richard?

It's really difficult to know. Although from an academic point of view it would be interesting to see if, or how quickly, your database reached 25. As you say, there might well be duplicates in your count, as the same coins get sold and then resold. In which case the overall total could remain stubbornly low. 

Not a glamorous variety, and doesn't attract a lot of attention, but clearly the type is visible to the naked eye.

Maybe a bit like the F38 in terms of demand.   

I have a feeling there are way more than 25 extant, since I've just had a look, and I've got 8....:)

 

 

( Unless everybody is happy to believe there are only 25, so I'll get a few more, be then able to control the world price, 

and I can then charge what I like for them and then I'll be rich, I tell you, RICH!!!!........

....at this point the nice nurse calms me down and gives me my Horlicks .....)

[blakeyboy]

9 hours ago, secret santa said:

I have a feeling that there only around a dozen penny collectors on the Forum so we may not get a very representative selection ?

Really???

I'm amazed......mind you, that means were are now a shilling......

 

See what I did there?

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I've got a bit of time on my hands at the moment so I might create a page - it's simple to remove it from the menu if I find that it's common.

Here's a cropped version of mine, Richard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by 1949threepence
had a bit of a game with size disparity

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

16 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Really???

I'm amazed......mind you, that means were are now a shilling......

 

See what I did there?

We better hope that eBay doesn't read this. They might get the wrong idea....

[Martinminerva]

52 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I have a feeling there are way more than 25 extant, since I've just had a look, and I've got 8....:)

Agreed - especially in lower grade. I have 4 ranging from good fine down to fair. And I have sold 3 other worse ones on eBay over the years...

But I do agree that they are rare in high grade. Maybe that's more realistic for the 25 ish number if you only count EF and above!

Don't really think they merit a page, Richard, or else you'd be listing loads of other varieties like open 3 1863s, narrow date 1879s etc which I suspect are a similar number both in lower and then higher grade...

[1949threepence]

58 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I have a feeling there are way more than 25 extant, since I've just had a look, and I've got 8....:)

 

 

( Unless everybody is happy to believe there are only 25, so I'll get a few more, be then able to control the world price, 

and I can then charge what I like for them and then I'll be rich, I tell you, RICH!!!!........

....at this point the nice nurse calms me down and gives me my Horlicks .....)

and they're definitely F79's where the sea crosses the linear circle?

[Martinminerva]

7 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

and they're definitely F79's where the sea crosses the linear circle?

Absolutely, Mike, in the case of my 4 plus 3. In fact, in lower grade they are easy to spot as the sea wears flatter and obviously crosses the linear circle. Also, the date spacing is intermediate between the narrow and wide date versions of the common, later reverses for 1875.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Martinminerva