Ongoing Spink Sale (17/1/21) Featuring OUTRAGEOUS Prices

[VickySilver]

Yikes, check the prices! Just shocking IMO, and not just Gold proofs, etc. but includes silver coins. Will be interested to see what the 1850 shilling goes for in the next 5-10 minutes...

 

 

[Iannich48]

2 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Yikes, check the prices! Just shocking IMO, and not just Gold proofs, etc. but includes silver coins. Will be interested to see what the 1850 shilling goes for in the next 5-10 minutes...

 

 

Just a cool $9500 + commision.

[Rob]

There was a number of mind boggling prices today. I guess the first sale at midday set the scene with hammer prices at twice the estimates across the collection. It's always depressing to think you might have a bid at 2 or 3 times the estimate, only to see it sail off into the distance. I thought lot 259 looked quite an attractive proposition in the 2-3K bracket against a 500-800 estimate, but 8 or 9K? The same could be said for any number of lots. It will be interesting to see the final totals.

The last couple of years have played havoc with my purchasing.

[bagerap]

It's starting to happen in my market, tokens and medals. I put a bid on ebay today for a 19th century silver ploughing medal. Well laid out and with beautiful copperplate engraving. I have currently 5  similar in stock because they sell well . As such, they go for 2-3.5 times bullion. Lovely items, but common.

Today I bid £37.00 on 14 gr. of agricultural silver. At that price it would have netted me  on average a £12-18 profit. It sold for £122.00

[VickySilver]

I was shocked to see some of the Pywell-Phillips coins going for double estimate - not all but MANY had been cleaned, and not too pleasantly. One example was the cleaned 1905 Halfcrown, and I believe the 1893 Jub. sixpence (can't remember for sure on that one). Also, the Churchill specimen crown went for 9500 - how on Earth did that rate a "66"?

Also the prices these pieces went for really seemed to mirror the American situation - that top coins are now basically out of reach for the "commoner".

[Rob]

Yep, it was absolutely bonkers. Safe to say my collection is the same today as it was yesterday morning.

[oldcopper]

Nothing for me. That Churchill satin crown at $9,500 (= about £9,500 after extras) - not bad for 10 minutes work on the surfaces with some blue tinge. Oh, what a cynic - not that that is my area of expertise!

Even that Soviet medal from the late 80's which looked like something out of a toy box circa 1960 made $15,000 hammer.

That James II halfcrown also caught my eye - an excellent example of the type, almost full detail. Needless to say, I dropped out very early in the bidding. 

The fact that Greg Edmonds spent an eternity on many of the lots unfortunately seemed to work in his favour. 45-50 lots/hour is excruciating and some fingers unfortunately must have lost patience, anything to move him on! 

[pokal02]

I was looking at four crowns (one an upgrade). I knew they'd all be expensive as I don't have many crown gaps these days.  In the end pushed the boat out on one which was over 3x top estimate & gave up on the others.  Have to give up collecting until October now to get back on budget!   

[jaggy]

8 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I was shocked to see some of the Pywell-Phillips coins going for double estimate - not all but MANY had been cleaned, and not too pleasantly. One example was the cleaned 1905 Halfcrown, and I believe the 1893 Jub. sixpence (can't remember for sure on that one). Also, the Churchill specimen crown went for 9500 - how on Earth did that rate a "66"?

Also the prices these pieces went for really seemed to mirror the American situation - that top coins are now basically out of reach for the "commoner".

I was shocked at the poor quality of the Frank Viles sale at Spink and I told 'Greg Spink' so on Facebook. That isn't a criticism of Spink as such. They are a business and, to be fair, have been very professional in all my dealings with them.

Even so, the lots all sold. They sold a 1562 sixpence which, in my humble opinion is poorer than my own example, for £1,200. 

[VickySilver]

I wonder if we are getting priced out of our own areas? Did you see the 1685 plumes shilling went for 60k?

[jaggy]

Just now, VickySilver said:

I wonder if we are getting priced out of our own areas? Did you see the 1685 plumes shilling went for 60k?

I suppose it depends on the coin. I've bought quite a few coins over the lockdown (gotta spend the dosh on something) and haven't been overly shocked by the prices.

[Rob]

9 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I was shocked at the poor quality of the Frank Viles sale at Spink and I told 'Greg Spink' so on Facebook. That isn't a criticism of Spink as such. They are a business and, to be fair, have been very professional in all my dealings with them.

Even so, the lots all sold. They sold a 1562 sixpence which, in my humble opinion is poorer than my own example, for £1,200. 

Spink can only sell what they are asked to. As you point out, the frankly vile sixpences were depressing. I ploughed through them all to see if there was an overmark in the hammereds that would have ticked a box, but no. Nothing esoteric and little of quality. Even when one coin in a lot was half decent, it was usually mixed with others that you would have difficulty selling. It isn't a new problem. Most collections are run of the mill material, and have to be because low and middle grade coins make up the vast majority of coins extant - it's just that they don't usually go through Spink, so people who regularly buy through them are going to be disappointed when these appear. Even Walter Wilkinson's collection had a few dogs in there (a few of which I bought), but sometimes that's all there is known of the variety.

The point I take from recent sales is that there must be a new cohort of buyers who have no experience of what some coins can look like based on the prices paid for indifferent material. Maybe a decade or more of dross on ebay has reset standards in what people perceive to be quality?

[Diaconis]

Waiting for the Lessen sale 🤯

[jaggy]

12 minutes ago, Rob said:

Spink can only sell what they are asked to. As you point out, the frankly vile sixpences were depressing. I ploughed through them all to see if there was an overmark in the hammereds that would have ticked a box, but no. Nothing esoteric and little of quality. Even when one coin in a lot was half decent, it was usually mixed with others that you would have difficulty selling. It isn't a new problem. Most collections are run of the mill material, and have to be because low and middle grade coins make up the vast majority of coins extant - it's just that they don't usually go through Spink, so people who regularly buy through them are going to be disappointed when these appear. Even Walter Wilkinson's collection had a few dogs in there (a few of which I bought), but sometimes that's all there is known of the variety.

The point I take from recent sales is that there must be a new cohort of buyers who have no experience of what some coins can look like based on the prices paid for indifferent material. Maybe a decade or more of dross on ebay has reset standards in what people perceive to be quality?

To your point, I think that newer collectors will often buy the run of the mill stuff. I know that I did when I was starting out some 35 years ago. So maybe that is driving the lower end prices up. I'm not sure that is true across the board. I've bought a few coins over the past three months and, as usual, I do my research across the various auction archives and the prices I have been paying are about right. No bargains but not overpaying either.

Even so I've seen some coins that I was interested in go for mind-boggling prices (in my opinion of course). For example, a 1911 penny (MS65 Red) sold at BSJ for £250. I bought a 1911 penny (MS65 RB) for £115 on Ebay.

[oldcopper]

59 minutes ago, Rob said:

Spink can only sell what they are asked to. As you point out, the frankly vile sixpences were depressing. I ploughed through them all to see if there was an overmark in the hammereds that would have ticked a box, but no. Nothing esoteric and little of quality. Even when one coin in a lot was half decent, it was usually mixed with others that you would have difficulty selling. It isn't a new problem. Most collections are run of the mill material, and have to be because low and middle grade coins make up the vast majority of coins extant - it's just that they don't usually go through Spink, so people who regularly buy through them are going to be disappointed when these appear. Even Walter Wilkinson's collection had a few dogs in there (a few of which I bought), but sometimes that's all there is known of the variety.

The point I take from recent sales is that there must be a new cohort of buyers who have no experience of what some coins can look like based on the prices paid for indifferent material. Maybe a decade or more of dross on ebay has reset standards in what people perceive to be quality?

The lack of overheads for Spink is a factor as well - they don't produce a catalogue, unless it's a special collection, so they can bang out anything on the Internet without much effort. The Viles stuff would never have made it in the catalogue only days.

It was more akin to DNW's multiple lots section or "Collector's Corner" in the old SNC; often single figure prices, and mainly lower-grade.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, jaggy said:

To your point, I think that newer collectors will often buy the run of the mill stuff. I know that I did when I was starting out some 35 years ago. So maybe that is driving the lower end prices up. I'm not sure that is true across the board. I've bought a few coins over the past three months and, as usual, I do my research across the various auction archives and the prices I have been paying are about right. No bargains but not overpaying either.

Even so I've seen some coins that I was interested in go for mind-boggling prices (in my opinion of course). For example, a 1911 penny (MS65 Red) sold at BSJ for £250. I bought a 1911 penny (MS65 RB) for £115 on Ebay.

The only point I'd make is that with some vanishingly rare varieties, only low grade specimens are available.

[VickySilver]

I think more of what I was getting at is the coins that may have been 500 to 1000 pounds 10 years ago may go for 5, 10 or 20x that amount now. And so maybe that is the new reality, but leaving many of old-time collectors out possibly. On the other hand, let us not be surprised if there is a setting in the market either. Also I saw with several lots an alarming trend to give more value to the slabbed coins and that even amongst slabbed coins there would be a large jump - USA style - in the price gap for a one point TPG grade difference (or so it seemed).

[Rob]

Question for Vicky or Jaggy here. That was the Spink NY sale which happens at the same time as all the others, Goldberg/Markov, CNG Triton, Heritage etc. This is an established set of sales with a strong following, so was the US interest piqued for this one compared to the usual interest, as the sale also had a larger number of slabbed coins than usual for Spink? Presumably with the US market in mind, the Sweetnam sale a couple hours earlier was partially slabbed. Given his name was on the slab where applicable, I assume that they were slabbed with the US in mind, even though it wasn't originally a US sale being priced in pounds. Was there any hype in the US prior to the sale?

[VickySilver]

Nope. I only knew because of auction listings on sixbid.com as well as for some reason following Spink - I occasionally buy for them. But Jaggy may not be the semi-recluse that I am. With no actual NYINC, there wasn't the sort of floor bidding there would have been in normal years and to my knowledge the sale was not "pumped up". 

I have no idea who the buyers or dealers were that were pushing prices, Atlas in some years was held to blame by me but then it takes two or more to push numbers and the former mainly was buying at not so inflationary prices and them pushing them up considerably.

[Rob]

I know NYINC was cancelled, but thought auction houses may have advertised and that buyers had set aside funds for the week notwithstanding the various lockdowns, just as they try to hype up Coinex week. Money sitting in peoples' pockets is usually restless, which is probably the reason for the recently inflated prices due to the lockdown, with everyone being forced on-line. The only apparent thing is that the world is awash with money.

[pokal02]

The auctioneer was continually saying that these were coins for 'collectors', but I suspect very few got a look in.  The same paddle numbers kept coming up as successful bids and I can't imagine any collector being able to buy 7 or 8 coins at these prices.    

[Matteo95]

Maybe a dealer who was offering on commissions 

[Rob]

Total for the sale - $2.6m. Plus nearly 700K for the 75 lots in the Sweetnam sale earlier that day. Spink must be happy.

[VickySilver]

Well, Rob guess I didn't answer the question too well: advertising not all that great and hard catalogues were delayed by the horrific mail over here - which used to be very good - and in fact I just got the group auction catalogue by Superior et al TODAY! I do not know any person that actually won a coin, and mercifully not too many I would have been after n any case.

I think sales such as this really push collectors into the hole - I think soon there will likely be very few collectors that will attempt any sort of comprehensiveness. It is just now too damn expensive even in areas that used to be cheap (20th C. pre-decimal silver for one !).  Just how many high pound/dollar coins can one afford to hold?

 

[oldcopper]

3 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Well, Rob guess I didn't answer the question too well: advertising not all that great and hard catalogues were delayed by the horrific mail over here - which used to be very good - and in fact I just got the group auction catalogue by Superior et al TODAY! I do not know any person that actually won a coin, and mercifully not too many I would have been after n any case.

I think sales such as this really push collectors into the hole - I think soon there will likely be very few collectors that will attempt any sort of comprehensiveness. It is just now too damn expensive even in areas that used to be cheap (20th C. pre-decimal silver for one !).  Just how many high pound/dollar coins can one afford to hold?

 

Some of these coins were one-offs to be fair, the last James II plume shilling on the market that I know of was Spink SNC in the early 80's - £2,500 for a coin in only fair condition if I remember rightly.  There might have been another sale since but none I know of.

"Conceivably the finest known" is not the case for the 1700 plumes 6d - perhaps "finest known in commerce" might be more accurate, as being a duplicate of the BM's, the BM 's retained one would be better and the Ashmolean has a better one as well: