Undeclared Hoard of Saxon coins

[Paddy]

In case anyone hasn't seen this - interesting BBC story about this hoard of Saxon coins found by metal detectorists and undeclared. Looks like they will be spending some time at the pleasure of her Majesty!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-50461860

 

[1949threepence]

11 minutes ago, Paddy said:

In case anyone hasn't seen this - interesting BBC story about this hoard of Saxon coins found by metal detectorists and undeclared. Looks like they will be spending some time at the pleasure of her Majesty!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-50461860

 

Indeed - wonder what happened to the rest of the coins?

[Diaconis]

Sadly, just not wise enough to appreciate, or even care about, the implications of their actions.

Greedy philistines like  that can quite easily cause a knee jerk reaction; calling for the introduction of regulation and licensing. 

Would that be a bad thing, aside from the practicalities of implementation ? Bit like a fishing license, I suppose.

Judging by the amount of finds popping up here there and everywhere, there must be quite a little flock  to fleece.

[1949threepence]

I'd bet serious money there have been other major finds, left undeclared, that nobody else knows about except the finder - especially if working alone.  

[Peckris 2]

Interesting that this is in Hammered. I realise it's a subjective, personal, geeky point, but I'd class Saxon under Ancients along with Roman (which they overlap with), Greek, and Celtic, etc. For me, "hammered" means anything from the Norman invasion to the arrival of milled in Tudor times.

[Paddy]

9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Interesting that this is in Hammered. I realise it's a subjective, personal, geeky point, but I'd class Saxon under Ancients along with Roman (which they overlap with), Greek, and Celtic, etc. For me, "hammered" means anything from the Norman invasion to the arrival of milled in Tudor times.

I'd never really thought about it before, but I have always taken hammered English coins to start with the Saxons as that appears to be when the thin flan, cold-hammered silver style starts. Roman and the Barbarous copies seem to be ancient whereas some of the early Saxon unnamed coinage would seem to be a transition period.

I see North's book "English Hammered Coinage" starts in circa 600AD and covers all the Saxon period, so that would seem as good a guide as any.

[copper123]

Viking hoards are quite rare

[Paddy]

Well they have been handed some pretty stiff sentences:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-50516329

10 years and 8 1/2 for the detectorists, 5 1/2 for one of the dealers. The other dealer is ill and will be sentenced later.

 

[Rob]

It's difficult to be sympathetic as they both would have received at least a substantial 6 figure sum and possibly more. I don't understand what's wrong with rejecting a lot of money, particularly given the cost of fencing such a substantial quantity of illicit material would likely reduce the total proceeds to around half the value of the hoard - or about what they would have received anyway.

Pure greed and stupidity, but I'm not sure in which order.

[craigy]

such a shame, they would have made a pretty penny anyway doing it legit, and to have your name on that hoard would be something special, bet there are some dealers shitting it now 

[1949threepence]

45 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Well they have been handed some pretty stiff sentences:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-50516329

10 years and 8 1/2 for the detectorists, 5 1/2 for one of the dealers. The other dealer is ill and will be sentenced later.

 

Very stiff sentences indeed - perhaps surprisingly so. Seen much much less given for arguably much worse crimes.

They should have taken the honest, but still well rewarded route. 

 

[Peckris 2]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very stiff sentences indeed - perhaps surprisingly so. Seen much much less given for arguably much worse crimes.

They should have taken the honest, but still well rewarded route. 

 

Agreed. It was both stupid and greedy but I've seen rapists get smaller sentences.

[1949threepence]

44 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Agreed. It was both stupid and greedy but I've seen rapists get smaller sentences.

Exactly what I was thinking - plus GBH.

After all if they hadn't found it, it might have lain there for who knows how much longer. In the annals of really serious crimes which hurt others, I truly don't think this is up there with them.

Moreover, as I said earlier, I bet lone detectorists have made major discoveries which they've never declared - and who would ever know?  

ETA: just to emphasise the point, these two bastards ('scuse my French) just got 7 years each for rape - link

Edited November 22, 2019 by 1949threepence

[Diaconis]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Agreed. It was both stupid and greedy but I've seen rapists get smaller sentences.

There's a clear message. You can be the vilest person alive toward your fellow man but do NOT take liberties with the Property of the Crown (including your taxes, unless you earn so much that you don't have to pay any).

Her Maj doesn't mess around...just look at gloomy Andrew these days. 

 

[copper123]

7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very stiff sentences indeed - perhaps surprisingly so. Seen much much less given for arguably much worse crimes.

They should have taken the honest, but still well rewarded route. 

 

They will be getting something else very stiff soon no doubt

[jelida]

I have known about this find since the police first took an interest several years ago, the finders were members of several South Wales detecting clubs including mine, and though I do not know them personally I know a lot about them through friends. Powell is said to be a nasty piece of work, he has been to prison before and has a bad reputation regarding drugs etc. Layton is easily led, but has previously worked well with the FLO in Cardiff and posted a number of coins from the hoard  on various forums before suddenly  claiming he had found they were all fakes, and ending the conversation. I suspect Powell got at him. I think left to his own devices, Layton would have seen sense. Wicks, the dealer from Sussex, is a long term dealer in fake coins and artefacts on EBay under various guises. Paul Wells I know well, a likeable man who was very stupid. I have heard his side of the story several times at Numismatic Society. I think the judge got it right with Powell and Wicks, and Layton and Paul Wells were foolish be led. The finders would probably have done very well had they abided by the law, they had the tenant farmers permission though not the landowners; that occasionally happens, and does not usually affect the Treasure Act payment to the finders if they were acting in good faith, though it might have left them open to private prosecution. Either way they all deserve their significant sentences for the damage they have done to the hobby of metal detecting and the reputation of coin dealers and purchasers.

Jerry

[1949threepence]

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the harshness of the sentences, thanks for the detailed back story & low down, Jerry. Very informative.

[copper123]

Sounds like the big loser in all of this might be the farmer on whos land the coins were found

[blakeyboy]

It's amazing the lack of thought immediately after the digging stopped.

They could have had half the value between them, yet would have ended up with less than that,

going down the 'clever' route. This is, of course, assuming that the Police don't get interested,

and they couldn't have done anything with any money they got because the Taxman will find out.

If they'd used their brains, right now they could be heroes, doing lectures at detecting clubs,

have helped in the story of this island nation, and they could have done doughnuts outside the tax office in ferraris

and the taxman wouldn't have been able to do anything.

 

Instead, they are known as greedy twats, and have nothing to show for it, not even their liberty....

 

All this type of story does is increase one's resolve to keep doing things properly,

and it brings a lump to my wallet.

[1949threepence]

42 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

It's amazing the lack of thought immediately after the digging stopped.

They could have had half the value between them, yet would have ended up with less than that,

going down the 'clever' route. This is, of course, assuming that the Police don't get interested,

and they couldn't have done anything with any money they got because the Taxman will find out.

If they'd used their brains, right now they could be heroes, doing lectures at detecting clubs,

have helped in the story of this island nation, and they could have done doughnuts outside the tax office in ferraris

and the taxman wouldn't have been able to do anything.

 

Instead, they are known as greedy twats, and have nothing to show for it, not even their liberty....

 

All this type of story does is increase one's resolve to keep doing things properly,

and it brings a lump to my wallet.

Just pure greed.

I would have understood it more if there was never any reward.

[blakeyboy]

Exactly.

They seemed to actually prefer all the risks and being under the radar, just to maybe ( 1% chance ) getting  more cash...

Madness.   Ten seconds of thought would have made all this crystal clear.

[jelida]

Well, tomorrow night our FLO who was closely involved in the case is giving a presentation about it to Hereford Detecting Club and I hope to be there . To be fair, the FLO has kept the club well informed. We are cremating my Dad tomorrow at two, (don’t worry, his death was a blessed release), and barring the unexpected should be free by six pm. Went to a club rally near Hereford this morning, everybody I spoke to was pleased with the verdicts and sentences.

Jerry

 

[copper123]

Police are even entitled to confinscate thier assets under the proceeds of crime act if they think they were obtained via this crime

[Paddy]

1 hour ago, copper123 said:

Police are even entitled to confinscate thier assets under the proceeds of crime act if they think they were obtained via this crime

Yes - I suspect there may well be a proceeds of crime hearing to follow on from their sentences. This could result in them being ordered to be detained for an additional period of time if they do not repay the proceeds or reveal the location of the missing coins.

I agree with the harsh sentences and am pleased that they will send out a clear message to others considering or practising illegal detectorism, but I also feel for some of the defendants. It would seem there were two career criminals, who got what they deserved, and two foolish/rash/greedy conspirators who have seen their lives torn apart for their foolhardiness. They must be in a pretty dire state of mind now, and I can empathise with that whilst not suggesting they should have got any less.