1965 Double Obverse Crown

[VickySilver]

Stacks-Bowers has just sold a "Churchill" crown of the expected 1965 date, except struck with two obverse dies and evidently not doctored or messed with. 

So, two QE II effigies and none of Churchill. Grade appeared to be at lower mint state levels - maybe a 63 in the Sheldon scheme. Has anyone seen/heard of one of these?

Price?  $2880 USD

[Rob]

Never seen one, but the temptation for someone to make both double obverse and reverse is quite high. A practically unlimited supply of raw material at essentially zero cost to experiment with can only provide an added incentive given the prices seen for the Satin and signed versions of the normal coin.

[VickySilver]

I think that one was taken as legit by people that looked at it. I bought the Double Obverse 1970 proof penny at LondonCoins. Will see what I think of that on delivery.....

[Iannich48]

4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I think that one was taken as legit by people that looked at it. I bought the Double Obverse 1970 proof penny at LondonCoins. Will see what I think of that on delivery.....

I liked that 1970 double obverse penny too. An interesting coin i thought. 

[Iannich48]

Edit, 1970 double reverse penny.

[Sword]

Do you think such double obverse / reverse coins were made with the consent with the management of the mint or were they just unauthorized items made secretly by mint employees or genuine errors?

Edited September 16, 2019 by Sword

[JLS]

18 minutes ago, Sword said:

Do you think such double obverse / reverse coins were made with the consent with the management of the mint or were they just unauthorized items made secretly by mint employees? 

I think these are a fairly common class of mint sports  - that is, totally unauthorized. I can't see what the rationale to prepare them officially would be, 

One exists for the pre-1949 George VI penny as well, slabbed and sold by Heritage as a mint sport rather than a genuine error: https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-george-vi-double-obverse-penny-1937-1952-/a/3000-51891.s

There also was a 1969 50 pence double obverse sold by London Coins a few years back in the £300 region.

The earliest double obverse coin I know of is an 1831 US cent in the November 1879 Bangs & Co. sale. I think it's since lost to the mists of times, but likely wasn't a forgery given that the catalog was prepared by John W. Haseltine, who was notoriously meticulous. 

[Rob]

I have difficulty believing double obverses or reverses were errors because you only see the odd example. On a production run you will make a good number before making the discovery that you have cocked up. They would then be left with the choice of extracting the offending pieces, or letting them pass into the system. Probably more pertinent is that the die will usually have replaced a failed/worn out die, so with the knowledge that you need to replace the obverse (or reverse), you will actively seek a similar replacement. Putting two of the same in the machine is therefore only likely to happen at the very start of a run.

The best chance of having double anything is when the press is initially set up for the desired striking conditions, i.e. force applied.

[VickySilver]

I agree that if genuine that it was likely done on purpose. It was the final year of the predecimal penny and have no doubt this was the case. I have a 1970 halfpenny struck in nickel that is probably the same, or maybe test strike testing alloys or die compatibility. Whatever, certainly it was a lot cheaper than the 1949 double obverse and does have the dated side (Reverse) so prefer it. Given all the odd OMS coins known, I think they were busy at the RM with or without the consent of management, or maybe it was management.

[secret santa]

Well done Eric - I was hoping to get that coin myself, but the F112 wiped me out !

[PWA 1967]

On 9/16/2019 at 3:02 AM, VickySilver said:

I think that one was taken as legit by people that looked at it. I bought the Double Obverse 1970 proof penny at LondonCoins. Will see what I think of that on delivery.....

The person to ask for some kind of provenance and thoughts would be Gary D if he still uses the forum.

The coin was in the collection he sold not long ago and put a link up , just before christmas last year.

[VickySilver]

Ah, thanks for that. Will follow the lead.

Thanks Richard for not running that price up then! LOL

[Rob]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:47 PM, JLS said:

I think these are a fairly common class of mint sports  - that is, totally unauthorized. I can't see what the rationale to prepare them officially would be, 

One exists for the pre-1949 George VI penny as well, slabbed and sold by Heritage as a mint sport rather than a genuine error: https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-george-vi-double-obverse-penny-1937-1952-/a/3000-51891.s

There also was a 1969 50 pence double obverse sold by London Coins a few years back in the £300 region.

The earliest double obverse coin I know of is an 1831 US cent in the November 1879 Bangs & Co. sale. I think it's since lost to the mists of times, but likely wasn't a forgery given that the catalog was prepared by John W. Haseltine, who was notoriously meticulous. 

There are a few double obvs and revs before this. e.g. The Anne halfpennies for both sides, the W3 third iss. dbl obv. 1/2d and the Chas.1 1676 dbl rev P490

[JLS]

7 hours ago, Rob said:

There are a few double obvs and revs before this. e.g. The Anne halfpennies for both sides, the W3 third iss. dbl obv. 1/2d and the Chas.1 1676 dbl rev P490

Ah cheers Rob - I forgot about the Willliam III halfpenny, even though it's listed on eBay right now. 

Presumably the Anne halfpennies and P490 were officially struck like that as patterns ? 

[oldcopper]

36 minutes ago, JLS said:

Ah cheers Rob - I forgot about the Willliam III halfpenny, even though it's listed on eBay right now. 

Presumably the Anne halfpennies and P490 were officially struck like that as patterns ? 

I think the Wm III double obverses are slightly less rare than sometimes claimed - I picked one up at the Midland coin fair for ~£100 15 years or so ago. Lustrous as struck...no, pretty awful condition as usual.

[Rob]

5 hours ago, JLS said:

Ah cheers Rob - I forgot about the Willliam III halfpenny, even though it's listed on eBay right now. 

Presumably the Anne halfpennies and P490 were officially struck like that as patterns ? 

Yes, or as trials.

[JLS]

4 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I think the Wm III double obverses are slightly less rare than sometimes claimed - I picked one up at the Midland coin fair for ~£100 15 years or so ago. Lustrous as struck...no, pretty awful condition as usual.

A diversion from the topic of this thread, but my experience collecting the William & Mary and William III halfpennies so far is that a lot of the "extremely rare" varieties are readily available if you're willing to accept atrocious grade. 

There are also a lot of new varieties and sub-varieties knocking around. I found what appears to be a totally new 1701 halfpenny obverse variety in a dealer's junk bin for £10 at the last London coin fair, and I've got a few more which look interesting but I'm trying to find a better example of to confirm the variety. There's a long history of flan and die flaws being miscataloged in the series.

[VickySilver]

Yikes, quite a diversion! Well, I am a late milled fan but always like to hear of other coins.

However, I am interested in some of the coins coming from the 1960-70 period - knowledge, but if possible collecting them - this would exclude the halfpennies and pennies struck in gold!!!

I have the 1964, 65, 66 and 1967 pennies struck in CuNi. Interesting that there should be such a run, but wonder what else was going on at the mint. Was it all "shenanigans" performed on after-hour shifts, or just what?

But back to the original topic: I will likely get this coin certified as there is trouble in many quarters accepting it otherwise. Not that TPGs are infallible, but because that will give the coin somewhat greater plausibility.

[Rob]

Something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned previously is that the 1960s decade was a period of flux in this country and the Empire/Commonwealth countries. Although India parted in 1947, it was Ghana in 1957 that really set the ball rolling, with most countries gaining independence in the next 10-15 years, which coincided with new currencies and therefore issues. As many countries used the Royal Mint to supply their new coinage, blanks for these issues could be a possible source of many off-metal strikes. A lot of currencies are nominally similar in diameter and weight to our own currency, so as long as we are talking about regular metals - bronze, Cu-Ni etc, there is a distinct possibility that they were genuine mint errors.