Madness' Coin Grading Training Ground

[Madness]

Please help me learn how to grade.  

Purpose: I don't want to be ripped off!  Have a limited hobby budget and want to by wisely, not as investor, but to make my money stretch as far as possible.

Method: I'm sticking to 1787 shillings.  Hopefully by getting to know small details and common strike/die problems of a single type of coin, I'll be in a better position to recognise wear issues.  Besides, this is the coin I'll be buying next.  I will be working solely with images taken off the interweb.  

Your job: Please criticise the grade I give, explaining where I've gone wrong

Thanks!  

 

[Madness]

First coin off the rank:

Source of images

Obverse:

1. Cleaned, possibly also dipped - Evenness of tone; fine scratch marks of almost uniform direction, lack of patina

2. Wear - Significant flattening of surfaces and lack of detail in eyebrow, hair, ear, mouth

3. Die issue - Clogging of die in pauldron removing top section of parallel lines; Clogging of stems in two left-most top leaves of laurel.  

My grade guess: VF

Reverse:

1. As per obverse, possible dipping, although evidence of dirt in bottom right quarter

2. Wear - Flattening of rampant lion in British shield; Flattening of Fleur-de-lis; Other general wear on higher points, but the aforementioned are the two most obvious examples

3. Die issues - Clogging of central vertical lines; Clogging of the left-most middle semee of hearts; Details in harp seem sharper than many I have seen

My grade guess: gVF

Inviting criticism!

[Rob]

To grade any coin you need to know what a mint state example looks like. Failure by the uninitiated to do this is why so many things on ebay are listed as extremely fine or unc. A washer is a washer, so anything with half decent detail appears to automatically deserve extremely fine. Sadly this is not how it works. That's why you should avoid ebay if you don't feel confident to grade a coin.

Here are a few in varying grades.

[Madness]

Thanks @Rob

I assumed this would be the best approach. I've saved an example of a Pingo proof and your uncirculated examples to compare to.  There are some variations between the Pingo Proof to the circulation examples, though.  

[Rob]

[Rob]

[Rob]

7 minutes ago, Madness said:

Thanks @Rob

I assumed this would be the best approach. I've saved an example of a Pingo proof and your uncirculated examples to compare to.  There are some variations between the Pingo Proof to the circulation examples, though.  

The only unc one is the no hearts. Here it is in a larger picture.

[Rob]

and the reverse.

[Madness]

5 minutes ago, Rob said:

The only unc one is the no hearts. Here it is in a larger picture.

 

Yep - That's the one.  You posted it for me a few days ago in this thread 

Thanks for providing a larger images though.  Very helpful!

[Rob]

Your assessment and grading looks about right on the one you posted, but it is horribly bright.

[Madness]

Thank you for helping me.  Do you mean that the image is bright, or the coin is bright?

[Rob]

1 minute ago, Madness said:

Thank you for helping me.  Do you mean that the image is bright, or the coin is bright?

The coin. Look at the reflections off the angled surfaces facing the light source. That is what the coin would look like if illuminated using a flash on the camera. There is no texture to the surface tone which is a good indication of having been cleaned or dipped at some point. The obverse hairlines betray a bit of abrasive cleaning by someone. Any coin in circulation will develop hairlines, but that goes hand in hand with accumulating dirt. Clean coin and hairlines says cleaned.

[Madness]

@Rob Yep - Made some of those comments in my grading attempt.  Good to have your confirmation.  What does the term "texture" mean?

Edited July 24, 2018 by Madness

[1949threepence]

Can I recommend the book "The Standard Guide to Grading British coins" by Derek Francis Allen. I've found this book invaluable over the years, when I've been slightly unsure as to a grade. 

Just looked and it is available on Amazon Australia, if you're interested, for $20.70 - link 

[Madness]

4 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Can I recommend the book "The Standard Guide to Grading British coins" by Derek Francis Allen. I've found this book invaluable over the years, when I've been slightly unsure as to a grade. 

Just looked and it is available on Amazon Australia, if you're interested, for $20.70 - link 

Most certainly you can recommend it!  Looks great.  Thank you.

[Madness]

.

 

[PWA 1967]

2 minutes ago, Madness said:

.

 

You lost for words 

[Madness]

Source: Rob's first test shilling

I've marked the image.  Red circles indicate wear.  Blue circles indicate die issues.  Green circles indicate possible engraving variations.  Running out of time, so didn't do much with legend or reverse.

My guestimate of grade would be somewhere in the region of VF for both sides.

Please criticise!  

[Madness]

5 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

You lost for words 

Tried to post, but image attachment exceeded limit.  Tried work around in subsequent post in the form of an embedded imugr picture.  Sorry!

[PWA 1967]

4 minutes ago, Madness said:

Tried to post, but image attachment exceeded limit.  Tried work around in subsequent post in the form of an embedded imugr picture.  Sorry!

No need to be sorry i was only joking.......Good book though and definately a good buy.

Hat off Mike for finding it in Australia 

[Peckris]

11 hours ago, Madness said:

Source: Rob's first test shilling

I've marked the image.  Red circles indicate wear.  Blue circles indicate die issues.  Green circles indicate possible engraving variations.  Running out of time, so didn't do much with legend or reverse.

My guestimate of grade would be somewhere in the region of VF for both sides.

Please criticise!  

I think you're being too harsh. That's at least AEF in my opinion. Remember, these 1787 shillings and sixpences weren't intended for general circulation so we don't often get to see genuinely circulated worn examples. Also remember that the more you enlarge a picture from its life size the more you will exaggerate any flaws.

However I wouldn't argue too closely with your markups, though a few of your red circles might indicate die wear rather than coin wear.

(Oo-er, 9999 posts. Getting on the edge of unwanted - and quite probably undeserved! - Legend status..)

[Sword]

8 minutes ago, Peckris said:

I think you're being too harsh. That's at least AEF in my opinion. Remember, these 1787 shillings and sixpences weren't intended for general circulation so we don't often get to see genuinely circulated worn examples. Also remember that the more you enlarge a picture from its life size the more you will exaggerate any flaws.

However I wouldn't argue too closely with your markups, though a few of your red circles might indicate die wear rather than coin wear.

(Oo-er, 9999 posts. Getting on the edge of unwanted - and quite probably undeserved! - Legend status..)

You have already been a "Forum God" for so many years. "Forum Legend" is already a downgrade. 

[1949threepence]

9 hours ago, Peckris said:

I think you're being too harsh. That's at least AEF in my opinion. Remember, these 1787 shillings and sixpences weren't intended for general circulation so we don't often get to see genuinely circulated worn examples. Also remember that the more you enlarge a picture from its life size the more you will exaggerate any flaws.

However I wouldn't argue too closely with your markups, though a few of your red circles might indicate die wear rather than coin wear.

(Oo-er, 9999 posts. Getting on the edge of unwanted - and quite probably undeserved! - Legend status..)

I agree Peck, that coin is AEF. There is too much remaining detail for it not to be. 

Distinguishing between die wear and actual wear on a coin surface is an art form in itself.

By the way, go on, be a legend 

[Madness]

@1949threepence  Are there any principles underlying this dark art?  Principles and guidelines?  I'm here to learn.

[Guest Peckris 2]

35 minutes ago, Madness said:

@1949threepence  Are there any principles underlying this dark art?  Principles and guidelines?  I'm here to learn.

The main principle is that coin wear tends to be at least fairly even across the entire design and legend. Die wear more often shows up as particular points of the design and not elsewhere. To give a few examples of die wear:

• the lions' faces on the reverse of George V shillings and sixpences often appear lacking in detail where everything else is crisp
• the flattened face and chest of Britannia on George V pennies, caused by the high obverse profile
• the flat portrait hair on many H pennies (1918-19) where the dies - supplied by the Mint - were overused by the sub-contractor (Heatons)