George III shilling error

[jaggy]

Would appreciate a second opinion ..... does this look like I over S in Honi (ESC2147)?

[jelida]

Does look like it to me?.

[Lost_shilling]

indeed!

[azda]

It certainly looks like it, but also seems to have a middle leg like an E in the middle of the I. Definitely over an S though

Edited January 1, 2017 by azda

[Michael-Roo]

 

Here's an 1820 shilling I have for comparison. These are rarer than the price guides suggest.

 

[jaggy]

First, thanks for all your comments. I tend to be rather conservative with these things so I do appreciate your input.

I also had a look in the DNW auction archives for comparative examples and mine is similar to one they auctioned (but did not sell).

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?department=Coins&lot_id=80220

While the error is not as strong/obvious as Michael's above, my coin is a nice example and graded MS63 by PCGS. I bought the coin in 2013 and I'm not sure exactly why as it isn't a sixpence. At the time I didn't notice the error/variety and only saw it now as I was inputting it into my new database. So this is a rather nice surprise.

[jaggy]

Also ...... this from the DNW archive .... how great to have one of only 'four known specimens'. 

 

Click Image to Zoom

• Back to Search Results

Lot 490

Date of Auction: 20th June 2001

Sold for £620

Estimate: £400 - £500

Shilling, 1817, i of honi over s (ESC –; SC 112; S 3790). Brilliant and practically as struck, extremely rare; believed to be the finest of the four known specimens (£400-500)

 

 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, jaggy said:

Also ...... this from the DNW archive .... how great to have one of only 'four known specimens'. 

 

Click Image to Zoom

• Back to Search Results

Lot 490

Date of Auction: 20th June 2001

Sold for £620

Estimate: £400 - £500

Shilling, 1817, i of honi over s (ESC –; SC 112; S 3790). Brilliant and practically as struck, extremely rare; believed to be the finest of the four known specimens (£400-500)

 

 

That one reappeared in an MS65 slab, bought at bargain basement price (£130 ish), and I sold it for a forum member. The total is probably more than 10 as I now have records of 8.

The two dates for shillings with I/S in HONI (1817 & 1820) are struck from different reverse dies. The first is still not listed in CoE.

I don't know if the same error exists in 1817 for sixpences, but the consistency of error suggests they were done by the same hand, who presumably thought the N was that of PENSE. This will be a mirror of the S/I error where the engraver was obviously thinking of the N in HONI

[jaggy]

Interesting commentary Rob. Thanks for that.

I had assumed that there were more than four examples around and I note that in the later DNW auction (October 2002) they just state that it is "extremely rare". I should imagine that if we know of 8 then there are probably at least as many, if not more, that we don't know about. At that point, condition becomes more important.

The S/I error also exists for the 1820 sixpence but is not listed for the 1817. I only have one example of each and neither has that error.

[Michael-Roo]

London Coins have only handled two, low grade, examples.

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Shilling+1820&category=9&searchtype=1

[Rob]

54 minutes ago, jaggy said:

Interesting commentary Rob. Thanks for that.

I had assumed that there were more than four examples around and I note that in the later DNW auction (October 2002) they just state that it is "extremely rare". I should imagine that if we know of 8 then there are probably at least as many, if not more, that we don't know about. At that point, condition becomes more important.

The S/I error also exists for the 1820 sixpence but is not listed for the 1817. I only have one example of each and neither has that error.

The 1817 shillings occur across the grades, from fair to unc with a fairly even spread. The 1817 referred to in the DNW sale is illustrated somewhere on this forum. The one in DNW October 2002 I bought on ebay a couple years later and sold when I bought the 1817 above.

The 1820 does appear to be rarer.

[azda]

This error has also made an appearance on the 1817 half crown, but in the other direction, S over I in PENSE

Edited January 1, 2017 by azda

[azda]

The full image

[azda]

Well, just learnt something new today. Thats the first time i've ever seen WW on the left next to the N in HONI and also next to the N in PENSE, i can honestly say i've never seen that before until i uploaded those 2 pictures 

[Sleepy]

41 minutes ago, azda said:

Well, just learnt something new today. Thats the first time i've ever seen WW on the left next to the N in HONI and also next to the N in PENSE, i can honestly say i've never seen that before until i uploaded those 2 pictures 

Just checked my 1817 hc and it's the same has WWP next to HONI and just a single W next to PENSE.

[Paulus]

1 hour ago, Sleepy said:

Just checked my 1817 hc and it's the same has WWP next to HONI and just a single W next to PENSE.

Same here: 

[Sword]

It is interesting that Thomas Wyon Junior (the engraver of the bullhead halfcrown reverse according to p261 of ESC) didn't give his full initials TW and simply used W instead. Bit strange as he used WWP for the mint master. 

I wonder if he was collaborating with his cousin William Wyon on the engraving / designing and so "W" stood for both of them? William Wyon even used "W Wyon" or at least WW on his own work. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sword

[Rob]

2 hours ago, Sword said:

It is interesting that Thomas Wyon Junior (the engraver of the bullhead halfcrown reverse according to p261 of ESC) didn't give his full initials TW and simply used W instead. Bit strange as he used WWP for the mint master. 

I wonder if he was collaborating with his cousin William Wyon on the engraving / designing and so "W" stood for both of them? William Wyon even used "W Wyon" or at least WW on his own work. 

Looking at a selection of things, a pattern of sorts appears to exist.

His father was chief engraver of the seals and a medallist, but only appointed after his son. It has to be borne in mind that coin output at the Royal Mint was negligible over much of the reign of George III. Coppers from 1797 and 5 shilling dollars were produced at the Soho mint, leaving the Royal Mint to produce mostly gold, so a full time engraver was unlikely to be necessary. Appointed probationary engraver in 1811, his father had not yet been appointed chief engraver of seals and William was not yet on board, so it would appear that a simple W was adequate - such as on the Military Guinea. The question arises as to whether any others were employed as engravers prior to 1816. I don't know the answer to that.

Where T Wyon Junior has engraved a medal, he signs it T Wyon Jun, and conversely his father uses T Wyon Sen. Pistrucci was appointed on Junior's death and used anything from BP to his full name. J B Merlen, engaged from 1820, used his initials, as did WW (employed from 1816). At this point the use of a single W would be ambiguous due to the appointment of Thomas Wyon Senior, leading I believe to the different identifying initials