1904 Penny with 4 pointing to tooth

[bhx7]

Hi All

Until the Copthorne auction I had never heard of this variant. I had a bag of about 100 x 1904's and found 1 of this type. Does anyone know how scarce or common this variant actually is?

Thanks

Brian

[bhx7]

Here is an image of the coin. About level with the one sold in the Copthorne Penny auction. Photos through a flip so appologies for the quality.

Edited July 9, 2016 by bhx7

[bhx7]

23 hours ago, bhx7 said:

Hi All

Until the Copthorne auction I had never heard of this variant. I had a bag of about 100 x 1904's and found 1 of this type. Does anyone know how scarce or common this variant actually is?

Thanks

Brian

I have looked closer at the forum and noted 2 previous posts regarding this variant. One I even commented on. Starting to get old as had forgotten all about them. Still wouldn't mind finding out how actually scarce it is. Anyone any idea's. (Will now go and lay down in a quiet room and take my tablets!!!!)

Thanks all

[jon]

Only have one 1904 and mine is "to a gap" so can't really comment.

Like you I am interested what other's have to say 

[davidrj]

Looking at my 1904's I have two distinct date widths

David Groom lists 5 variations, including open and closed 9's and one with the 4 tilted

David

 

[bhx7]

Hi David

Yes I have a range of different variations but only one with the "Tilted 4"/"4 to a Bead" variety . There seems to have definately been lots of changes to the type settings for this date. From the coins I have looked at and from what I have read the 4TB is definately the hardest to find, no idea on real actual numbers or true rarity. I supose it is always going to come down to a best educated guess.  My big fascination at the moment is what is the difference from this variant to say the 1911 Hollow Neck, etc.. It seems to be very over looked. What makes one variant worth obtaining more than another that seems to me as equally scarce or relevant!!!

Brian

[jelida]

I would say it was of much greater interest if there was any actual change in the design of the master die, rather than minor inconsistencies of application of date digits to a working die prepared from an undated master. Erroneous or erratic repairs of a worn working die are also of great interest, but the effects of normal wear and tear much less so. 

While unintended date variations are of interest to some, I doubt they will ever command the top prices unless associated with other design changes.

Jerry

[Nordle11]

Agreeing with Jerry, the Gouby X has had a design change whereas hand punched date digits can and will be positioned slightly differently when new dies are being hubbed. I also have a tilted 4, but it's still slightly different to the example in Steve's collection. 

[bhx7]

Thanks Jerry and Matt

I would probably agree as I suppose this variant only affects one area of the design, namely the date. The Gouby X being identifiable by 2 points and even the 1909 reverse E which has at least 3 main identifiers. The only rarity in my opinion which debunks this way of thinking is the 1903 Open 3 as this is purely identifiable by the date numeral like the 1904 slanted 4 (4 over bead).

[jelida]

Changes in font are legitimate differences, as in the varieties of 1864 penny, also the 1863 open 3 and 1898 second 8.  It is not obvious (to me at least) where these fonts came from, whether a deliberate trial, or inadvertent use of a number punch destined for some other coin, perhaps for an overseas issue.  There are differing spacings of 1864, probably an officially sanctioned '4' change, though not to my knowledge in the others, presumably products of a single 'accidental' die.

Jerry

[scott]

but there are many different styles of 3 for 1863 as well

there is 1864 coss

1864 plain

and the wide date which is noticeable, but Haven't seen one in a decent grade/price to examine the type of 4 that is

[bhx7]

19 hours ago, jelida said:

Changes in font are legitimate differences, as in the varieties of 1864 penny, also the 1863 open 3 and 1898 second 8.  It is not obvious (to me at least) where these fonts came from, whether a deliberate trial, or inadvertent use of a number punch destined for some other coin, perhaps for an overseas issue.  There are differing spacings of 1864, probably an officially sanctioned '4' change, though not to my knowledge in the others, presumably products of a single 'accidental' die.

Jerry

I can see what your saying Jerry, but again harping back to the 1904, just look at the difference in the 4's. There are definately slightly differing numbers being used. I also noted what Scot was saying above. There is definitely variants out there that are overlooked or not taken as seriously as others. I will admit as above that where there has been a larger design change it obviously makes the coin more desirable as a variant, but there are also variants which I think merit more research and acclaim. There must be people who think the same as the price Steve got for his 1904 "4 to a tooth" was a healthy respectable one, taking into consideration the condition, etc....

 

[jelida]

3 hours ago, bhx7 said:

I can see what your saying Jerry, but again harping back to the 1904, just look at the difference in the 4's. There are definately slightly differing numbers being used. I also noted what Scot was saying above. There is definitely variants out there that are overlooked or not taken as seriously as others. I will admit as above that where there has been a larger design change it obviously makes the coin more desirable as a variant, but there are also variants which I think merit more research and acclaim. There must be people who think the same as the price Steve got for his 1904 "4 to a tooth" was a healthy respectable one, taking into consideration the condition, etc....

 

It is true that there are minor differences between individual digit punches, even where the font was the same. This is inevitable, as are date spacing variations, in the days before technology was microscopically precise.  I suppose it is a question of degree as to whether we recognise them as different, and collectable. Judicious work with a micrometer (or hi tech equivalent)  could possibly differentiate all the individual dies used in the era where date digits were entered by hand, but I do not feel this would make each die a different 'variety'. However there are collectors in some series particularly hammered who will collect different dies. There is nothing wrong with this approach, nor collecting differing date spacings, some of which are clearly rare. It is a question of terminology as to whether these are considered true varieties, or in numismatic terms something else such as minor variants.

I dont think we disagree .

Jerry

[scott]

we are also discounting the different 9's used throughout as well

 

[jelida]

Not discounting '9's, the above comments apply to all digits where variation has been noted.

From steamy Kyoto, where we have just walked miles to see red arsed monkeys being fed peanuts.

Jerru

[jacinbox]

9 hours ago, jelida said:

 I suppose it is a question of degree as to whether we recognise them as different, and collectable.

Not with the early Vicky Bronze but with Edwardian bronze it is definately something to consider IMO.

 

12 hours ago, bhx7 said:

but there are also variants which I think merit more research and acclaim.

Certainly including the 1944 second 4 over a tooth.

[VickySilver]

Maybe red arsed monkeys eating peanuts more exciting? LOL>  Yikes, I think I might have skipped that hike!

[Nordle11]

10 hours ago, jelida said:

Not discounting '9's, the above comments apply to all digits where variation has been noted.

From steamy Kyoto, where we have just walked miles to see red arsed monkeys being fed peanuts.

Jerru

Is Jerru your Japenese moniker?  

[Rob]

4 hours ago, Nordle11 said:

Is Jerru your Japenese moniker?  

sic (twice) Come on chaps, sharpen up.

[Paulus]

23 minutes ago, Rob said:

sic (twice) Come on chaps, sharpen up.

It'll be like Facebook soon, with zero attention to spelling and grammer (sic)

[davidrj]

12 hours ago, jacinbox said:

Certainly including the 1944 second 4 over a tooth.

This variety has recut waves in addition to the difference in date width,

Does anyone know of any other significant penny date width variations post EVII?

[scott]

only date width listed in groom is 1912 Halfpenny