Penny varieties

[Nordle11]

I've just bought a 1904 penny that doesn't quite look the same as the normal variety, or even the unlisted 'slanted 4' variety that has since been found. Here are some pictures, notice the gap between the tip of the 4 and the exergue line and also the position of the bottom serif on the 4. Any comments appreciated as usual.

1st = My penny

2nd = Normal variety

3rd = Slanted 4 variety

Edited December 10, 2015 by Nordle11

[Nordle11]

To add that the slanted 4 variety is also known as the 'unclosed 9' variety as well, where the loop of the 9 does not fully reach itself. The first and last pictures have the closed 9, but the 4 still looks different to me.

[RLC35]

To add that the slanted 4 variety is also known as the 'unclosed 9' variety as well, where the loop of the 9 does not fully reach itself. The first and last pictures have the closed 9, but the 4 still looks different to me.

The center example looks to me like it is a wider date!

[Nordle11]

Yes you're right Bob, I think it's something like - 11.5 teeth, 12 teeth, 11 teeth, but hard to tell with the wear.

Michael doesn't list anything on his website about it, Freeman doesn't list it and I can't find anything on it, but I know that Steve has one example which is where the last picture is from. I don't know how he found out about it unless he discovered it himself!

[DaveG38]

Yes you're right Bob, I think it's something like - 11.5 teeth, 12 teeth, 11 teeth, but hard to tell with the wear.

Michael doesn't list anything on his website about it, Freeman doesn't list it and I can't find anything on it, but I know that Steve has one example which is where the last picture is from. I don't know how he found out about it unless he discovered it himself!

Details of 1904 Pennies for your delectation:

1. Closed ‘9’ where the loop of the ‘9’ narrows to a point and meets the down stroke. This type has a narrow ‘4’, particularly on the horizontal and diagonal strokes, tilted clockwise and low down in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over a border tooth (number 11, when counted from the tooth under the ‘1’), giving a narrow date.
2. Closed ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’, not tilted clockwise or low down in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over the space between teeth numbers 11 and 12.
3. Closed ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’, which is high in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over the right of border tooth 12, giving a wider date.
4. Open ‘9’ where the loop of the ‘9’ is blunt and does not touch the down stroke. The ‘4’ is wider, closer to the exergue line and the whole coin is a dark colour.
5. Open ‘9’ where the ‘4’ is again wider, but the whole coin is a light brown colour.

There are also unconfirmed reports of three further types:

1. A closed ‘9’ type paired with a thicker ‘4’.
2. An open ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’.
3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet.

[Nordle11]

Dave, cracking breakdown, thanks. Where did you get this? Mr. Groom's book?

Also, which of those would mine fall into? I can only think that it would be the very last "3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet." But is the short plume at the front or back of the helmet? Here is a picture of the one I just bought.

[Peter]

Dave, cracking breakdown, thanks. Where did you get this? Mr. Groom's book?

Also, which of those would mine fall into? I can only think that it would be the very last "3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet." But is the short plume at the front or back of the helmet? Here is a picture of the one I just bought.

Nons

DaveG38 is Mr Groom.

[Nordle11]

Dave, cracking breakdown, thanks. Where did you get this? Mr. Groom's book?

Also, which of those would mine fall into? I can only think that it would be the very last "3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet." But is the short plume at the front or back of the helmet? Here is a picture of the one I just bought.

Nons

DaveG38 is Mr Groom.

Peter

It's Nordle, Nons is someone else

But thank you, I didn't actually know that! No wonder you're so bloody knowledgeable about pennies Dave

[PWA 1967]

Surprising who posts on here.

Top book.

Matt...................

[RLC35]

Yes you're right Bob, I think it's something like - 11.5 teeth, 12 teeth, 11 teeth, but hard to tell with the wear.

Michael doesn't list anything on his website about it, Freeman doesn't list it and I can't find anything on it, but I know that Steve has one example which is where the last picture is from. I don't know how he found out about it unless he discovered it himself!

Details of 1904 Pennies for your delectation:

1. Closed ‘9’ where the loop of the ‘9’ narrows to a point and meets the down stroke. This type has a narrow ‘4’, particularly on the horizontal and diagonal strokes, tilted clockwise and low down in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over a border tooth (number 11, when counted from the tooth under the ‘1’), giving a narrow date.
2. Closed ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’, not tilted clockwise or low down in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over the space between teeth numbers 11 and 12.
3. Closed ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’, which is high in the exergue. The foot of the ‘4’ is over the right of border tooth 12, giving a wider date.
4. Open ‘9’ where the loop of the ‘9’ is blunt and does not touch the down stroke. The ‘4’ is wider, closer to the exergue line and the whole coin is a dark colour.
5. Open ‘9’ where the ‘4’ is again wider, but the whole coin is a light brown colour.

There are also unconfirmed reports of three further types:

1. A closed ‘9’ type paired with a thicker ‘4’.
2. An open ‘9’ with a narrow ‘4’.
3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet.

I just looked at 4 examples that I have, and all of them are Open 9, with 11.5 teeth in date width.

[Nordle11]

Thanks Bob, I appreciate that you check your dates when I post regarding varieties Helps give me a bit of an idea.

[bhx7]

I noted that your new 4 falls clearly between a gap in the teeth. Both others are on top or over teeth. Also the nine is a very different shape or is that just me?

Edited December 10, 2015 by bhx7

[bhx7]

Missed Dave's explanation above (slaps head firmly!)

[Nordle11]

Missed Dave's explanation above (slaps head firmly!)

Take it as confirmation of your observations!

[DaveG38]

Dave, cracking breakdown, thanks. Where did you get this? Mr. Groom's book?

Also, which of those would mine fall into? I can only think that it would be the very last "3. An open ‘9’ type, with a wide ‘4’ but with a short plume to Britannia’s helmet." But is the short plume at the front or back of the helmet? Here is a picture of the one I just bought.

I'm a bit betwixt and between on this one. On balance, it does look like the unconfirmed type 3. The short plume is at the back of the helmet, the '9' appears to be open though there seems to be some flattening which makes it appear as though it might be closed and the '4' is the 'thin' type with a wide spread.

[Nordle11]

When I get it I'll take some close ups, I've got a decent microscopic camera thanks to Pete.

[Nordle11]

Some close up pictures. It's still difficult to tell if the 9 is open or not, it looks like it took a whack at some point.

Even without knowing if the 9 is open or not, it doesn't fit into the first 5 varieties due to the 4 not being slanted and being lower in the exergue.

[terrysoldpennies]

Sorry , but it looks to me like the 9 is the result of a die crack across the 9 into the exergue . you can see the blob of metal running down from above Terry

[Nordle11]

Sorry , but it looks to me like the 9 is the result of a die crack across the 9 into the exergue . you can see the blob of metal running down from above Terry

No need to be sorry about that! It certainly could be, but referring to my note just above I still don't think it can be assigned regardless of the 9, because of the positioning of the 4.

Terry - please also see the thread regarding die craks, blobs etc. as I have posted a photo for your perusal.

[PWA 1967]

Matt just noticed your getting carried away with the varieties and updating your site

Will post you thirteen different varieties of the 1907.

Keep smiling and Happy Christmas from me......... people like you keep the site alive.

[Nordle11]

Haha yeah, they're becoming difficult to assign, I spent more time doing the 1882 than I did on the whole of George VI!

Send 'em my way, my thinking is to add everything in one place so you can make your own decision on whether it is something you want to collect or not. Different people call different varieties different things, so I'm trying not to exlude anything at all!

And happy Christmas to you too Pete. I get the feeling that not everyone shares your opinion but I would be a fool to lurk in the shadow because I learn so much on this site every day

[PWA 1967]

Without people posting the site would be boring and i would not be looking all the time

Happy to send them and keep looking and learning

Be lucky will post Monday.

[terrysoldpennies]

Your 1904 is 11.5 tooth width with a straight 4. if you look in the forum under 1904 penny varieties 23-10-2013 I think its the second date down Terry

[Nordle11]

Thanks Terry that's a great link.