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DrLarry

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  1. DrLarry
    perhaps all you guys with the patterns might be able to show us the trial pieces, it may well be that more of the answer to this problem can be uncovered. I understand that you may see it as trivia but these types of experimental approaches can tell us a lot about many other art forms , method, spatial positioning, artistic devices and perspective and how they are understood and developed so I do not see why we cannot in the absence of the direct sources use them to see if there have been any alterations and changes to the design.
  2. DrLarry
    I think it is best if we look at the variations in the 1860 and 61 as this is the only coin we can with all certainty say was signed LCW.
  3. DrLarry
    no there is a subtle but perceptible difference it is the angle of the forearm and the relative length of the upper arm to shoulder joint which is dropped in the Bronze in order to reach the upper arm forward enough to facilitate the rendering of the shoulder as a level plane. With the upper the twist on the upper body in particular if you have a full breast and the extension of the elbow then at that angle and the hand twist combine to make an almost impossible pose ......out of balance anatomically. Note that the shaft of the trident in the copper passes in front of the elbow and the trident is thicker which would then balance it on the ground. The trident then drops down a good 20 microns forward in the Copper than the bronze. there is then more of a bend in the copper arm than the bronze. The chiton is open in the copper and the fall of the fabric much lighter and this is reflected in the drape below the outstretched arm. Look if you would at the at the triangular drape between the knees on the copper this is much lower and there is a follow through on the position of the left leg . whereas on the bronze the navel is suggested and is quite high which thrown the sit position off if you then consider the way the leg is not rendered as you then try to lean back it places so much pressure on diaphragm which would be very painful to sustain for more than a few seconds without losing the position. When you then factor in the modelling of the hand and fingers in particular the thumb on the bronze it becomes almost impossible to sit with all these elements simultaneously aligned. A few degrees off is enough to make the pose unattainable. Whereas the less bulky copper has poise and a more ethereal pose. the last factor is I accept a feature of the need to add a solid foundation within the 2D frame the foot: the twisting of the foot to show us 3/4 foot and toes is a device I am sure. but even here the back fold of the leg inside the coin on the copper allow the right foot to be rotated slightly to give the effect you might see on the copper . whereas on the bronze the foot is a little more difficult to predict but it appears on my early pennies that the foot is linear without any twist of the ankle which would expose the toes in that position.
  4. DrLarry
    Ok well let me take a few close up images and we can have a better discussion but I think you or I might be wrong
  5. DrLarry
    a friend and myself noticed about a year ago that there were suddenly so many of this lozenge shaped siege pieces that suddenly appeared that they must be being reproduced. Hey and I am no way or he an expert so one would expect anyone willing to spend such money would have a clue or bit of a clue. There are sharks out there and there is a general deficit in integrity
  6. DrLarry
    if that were the case why rotate the body to emphasis the Aegis 99.9 % of the people seeing it would not even notice it as a breast plaque......again that just doesn't seem to fit there is no value in presenting details like a broken wrist into an image of national importance. The debate in the chamber (parliament ) and the political issue during 1860 suggests almost that something other than Britannia was going to be used. THere is no reason why a heraldic device has to be deformed to be heraldic, she has sat reasonably comfortably since 1670 ish . OK in those earlier ones she does look as if a rat has climbed up her skirt and is heading its way north and she is sitting on an inflatable Swiss Ball doing pilates but she sits with great dignity on the halfpennies and pennies in the later 18th C. Heraldic lions have a specific reference point which at times might stretch back to the 13th C with the college of arms who restricted the use of emblems and devices but Britannia has never been used as such. The main reference is Greek and Roman in line with neoclassicism and in early Greek coins ,the constraints of the coin a a circular disc still do not prevent the depiction of the Goddess accurately. A set of reference elements in Britannia as Minerva or Athena like the Aegis, the owl, the Trident, and the Helmet are all part of Greek and Roman mythology as is the chiton (the Dress) all of these are well done on other medals he created. This artwork is this man's seminal piece it is going to be the coin that makes him immortal (historically). Again I ask why open yourself to artistic ridicule by simply getting the whole anatomy wrong. device. My point exactly produced for the masses no other piece of artwork was ever seen by so many millions passed million upon millions of times from 1860 to 1960. Who controlled an artistic rendition to be thus ......certainly not an artist. I will draw your attention next to the serious imbalance in the Ship. One of the masts that is persistent sits to the left of the central line of the ship. If this mast existed on a real ship and you tried to jibe with it it would make the ship unstable and I think it might topple over. The main mast is also off centre. A ship is not a heraldic device , although I understand it represented trade and exploration. But if the ship is sailing away from us in a North Easterly direction the only place it reaches I think might be Norway or Sweden. If Britannia is the embodiment of the British Isles unless they are searching for the N East passage where is the ship going? If you really want Britannia to be a hearalid device the best thing you can do is farce her in the other direction one leg outstretched to represent the SW peninsula, the body to re[present mostly england the shield forms the sticky out bits on the east coast ans here upper body appears to form a very pleasing pointy bit of scotland....then you get personification. Now the ship should sail towards or away from you heading towards Britania to say "welcome home " to Boaty Mc Boatface or away to represent trade out around the globe. I assume this was the reasoning in the 17th C before then she does not exist on any British coin (please correct me if I am wrong) I am not even sure she is representative of that for Britannia on a romano british coin (again I may be wrong).
  7. DrLarry
    we do have to verify and be careful not to fall into the lalala land that some will go...no you zoo. I mentioned to a seller from manchester that he had possibly a R over a B in an 1862 halfpenny and apparently he went back on the deal. Now every single coin he puts up for auction is some error or other that hell only knows where he gets some of the ideas from. It's quite a distraction LOL ...still I have kinda given up buying from him as he always does cloaked auctions with his best mate or cousin at the same ISP who bids everything up for no reason ...other than greed. There is so little integrity these days....said the old crone
  8. DrLarry
    I would not necessarily agree with the idea that something does not exist just because we cannot take a picture of it ,,,,and yes I know you are not saying that exactly true we cannot show it now. I use a multitude of different photographic techniques I would urge you all to download a little app from Google play store called Cozy magnifier + . in it there are a range of different imaging algorithms that render a coin in grayscale or negative reverse light. With the latter I have been able to see even on screen images of coins a vast degree of detail that you cannot normally see. The net result has been to find most of the less obvious varieties hidden under the "gunk" as a trade secret I will tell you that if you get the image on the screen at a good resolution and then use Cozy mag and image the coin in detail in the area you are looking you will find many more things. Subtle changes in the light density which are difficult to see with the human eye can be caught digitally. It took me a year or two playing with various methods to find this one. so give that a go and see if the information and this app work .....I realise now I have just destroyed my corner of this market ...but it does change the playing field and might allow you to record things previous difficult to record. Good luck Larry ps I do not have any connection to the app financially I just think it is the best I have found so far, but better on some phones than others
  9. DrLarry
    my point exactly .....LOL thaNK you for those replies they lifted my spirit if not my leg. It is very true the trident does not sit well. Mine is not to reason why however , the Britannia holding the trident in the half penny, penny, and farthing 4d copper series and silver all have a seated Britannia and she sits quite naturally. Under those circumstances it would be a pleasure to be dressed as a goddess and drawn. But then again his father did that piece of modelling...no not the one in the dress but as the artist so more rightly that should read....but his father did that rendering. But it seems that LCW had a bit of a dad complex always wanting to outdo his dad. However it raises a very serious point why is it so WRONG? as a sort of artist myself I instantly know when something does not "sit right" so how come it was allowed to pass? It is not beyond LCW's technical abilities to get it right some of the beauty of his later and earlier coins and medals shows an artist with a beautiful delicate touch showing pathos and naturalism. Of course the argument will most certainly at this point cry for the need to produce something that could be repeated millions of times. However unless there is some technical reason why each design element had to be X mm from the next piece in order to ensure the integrity of the die I can find no answer to this riddle. An engraver faced with a new technical challenge surely does not have to simply get it wrong. I know what you cry...."what is wrong and what is right? but i shall sing the same refrain and ask what technical problem makes you twist and contort the human body in this way? Zoo I agree the trident should descend by the knee or at least be more upright. I could post a picture of me in full wheel but then how would I take the picture. Also someone would report it to the moderator. I do not think the 3D to 2D answer works in the end this is the very essence of any coin engraving. to twist the fingers around and snap the wrist whilst dropping the left shoulder does not make the issue easier. There must be I think another reasoning. Or !!!!! LCW submits the design and prepares it, his first efforts do not work "they are too deep for the new metal " in my opinion someone else cut the final design, or he angered at the RM for many reasons (dismissal of the post of engraver) did it "wrong" on purpose. By not recognising the error and keep recutting from the master dies or as has been mentioned his brother took over the art work and the RM did not notice the obvious ARTISTIC error...illustrating that perhaps the RM had a certain disregard for artists work in general. I think there is a lot of politic work which sadly we can no longer really know because of the fire. LCW's diary is somewhat cold on the issue and cold on quite a lot of things. but on reading this please all other do the experiment yourself ......with or without the wife in the house ( think on you might get a brownie point or two if you are seen disappearing into your man caves with a broom. perhaps.......we could start a soap opera about the RM and its artists
  10. DrLarry
    I have looked at four and cannot see much I will keep looking but my 73's are limited, so far I cannot see much...sorry
  11. DrLarry
    I free-fall into dangerous territory here. You may ask "does it matter" or "who gives a rats arse" to which I would answer : if nothing else it makes us wonder ...why? There are many "penny people" on this forum and you all love this coin (as do I) but after about a year of this blind love affair ,as you know, I began to look with great care at the design. So I ask the forum why is it that Britannias hand is in an impossible pose and why is this obvious artistic flaw reproduced year after year. You see I cannot just be a blind collector, I cannot just see a bit of bling on a coin and go....wow! I would ask then you all to carry out a piece of experimental examination and feed back to me...please. But you have to do the experiment before you shout me down. sit in the exact same position that Britannia is in an get yourself a shield and a trident...no just a broom will do (if you have not yet fully converted to the dyson) I am a little old fashioned. now this is critical you must drop the left shoulder and angle the arm exactly as she has it. Take up your broom (not a call to revolt or to take up arms) now curl your fingers exactly as on the coin around your broom handle making sure to have the shaft cross the inside of the arm push it forward all the fingers must be evenly curling and I think the thumbs goes ...well it depends usually around the back. Now in your seated position twist back and take the weight on your shield...(I am sure you can be inventive) So can the hand ever be in this position can the fingers ever be in this position? Is it anatomically possible? If not why model it this way? What does it tell us about the attitude of the RM if anything? why did LCW allow it ? do it? if none of this matters to you that is also an important piece of the research game because if the public dont notice why bother to change it. This is todays challenge and even having done Yoga for many years; I can happily fold my leg behind my head and twist in to some ungodly positions, be careful not to strain yourself. Many thanks for your help ahead of it arriving. Have a good day Larry
  12. DrLarry
    I fully understand your hesitancy all of you and I find such silly ideas verging on the ridiculous such a terrible waste of time. I myself have spent now two years of research on this one project usually spending a couple of hours a day using the microscope, imaging it, drawing it and reconstructing the lines in order to make some sense of it. It is only the simple fact that in science we follow patterns (and I dont mean picture patterns, I mean groupings of events that recur ) once you find one you try to understand it, this is the very nature of the empirical approach. You then once you think you have an idea seek to nullify it by proposing the reverse hypothesis. The purpose of this is to seek to find deviations and then analyse the event or pattern statistically. The underlying function of this approach is to attempt to destroy your proposal. I think that I have tried to follow the same popperian process with this silly and annoying pattern (pictorial) and for the life of me I cannot get it to "go away". This leaves then a few conclusions the obvious one is as you go at great length to point out...."that this is pareidolia and I am as nutty as bar of wholenut" or it pareidolia and my mind has re-wired itself to see the same pattern again and again, or there maybe something. Whilst I accept I may be psychologically affected post chemotherapy the effect of studying this coming out of that haze has engaged my mind is the most wonderful way and in fact spread my knowledge of coins and my collection back to Lydian times. I am more than happy to be totally wrong. In truth I would prefer this option but I would hate to reach that point without undertaking a rigorous and intensive investigation. In science one of the most difficult aspects of the work is the that moment when you think you have an idea and you launch it with your peer group. Often this will lead to derition which is always hard to cope with no matter at what stage in ones career. However ridicule under peer review that relies on no personal engagement is nothing of any real value to any society. In this case as I have mentioned many times before if a sensible debate could be initiated in which I propose each element of the theory and you view this and then with open mind look at your own examples then we could either benefit as a group or I at least could just spend the time painting in my retirement years, or return to Africa to work with the kids in the charity. But either way I am suggesting a less dismissive approach. If nothing else we may all turn into artists LOL. It has also taught me how to look in great detail in coins and the process has allowed me to see anomalies in the normal and added to my collection almost all the rare varieties that everyone keeps getting excited about. SO again I suggest we may all gain from the experience and I am happy to share that. at the very least this is not all about money ££££ $$$$$m aLL the time which seems to preoccupy this forum constantly.
  13. DrLarry
    Well that is very nice for you perhaps don't get too distracted if you are in the process of your anal ablations.
  14. DrLarry
    I will look at mine tomorrow for you. Larry
  15. DrLarry
    I'm not sure I agree with you about the kids losing interest in history I would say it is in the ascendancy kids have been inspired by programmes like Horrible Histories it's just th interest is different. They have (thankfully) moved away from the tedium of learning long disconnected lists of facts. Instead they enjoy more social history and in many ways have a better understanding of history at the common level than many older people. Hence I think we might have a job on our hands if we approach collecting just as collecting long lists of coins. I think we should begin to write coins into the fabric of this somewhat dumbed down version of history (not my opinion) in that way we can engage them at a level of the people that held the most money and exchanged it... The common npeople..... Instead of being a very snobbish approach we can have a lot of fun being imaginative and creative. One good way is to ask primary school teachers if, when they study a historic period, if they would be interested in you visiting with a load of coins the kids can handle and imagine with. It is our duty as I have said to create the future collectors by stimulating their interest. The curriculum periods are, fire of London, tudors, victorian social history punishment and social injustice, roman Britain, Greeks, aztecs, Egyptians, civil war, African west Africa cultures. Then of course there are the high schools. Think outside the money box and show them the con nections coins can give them.
  16. DrLarry
    I want to be able to open the debate more than anything else. I have felt it important enough to allow myself to be open to the criticism and ridicule and I have considered many elements of the the discussion which I would enjoy the debate if you are at least willing to look with me.
  17. DrLarry
    I cannot fully answer the reason why this should be seen now by me. Digital photography pixelates which is in some ways a reverse of the rasterization process if I understand how this world correctly. OPf course Newton did not have a computer made of chips and electronics but he understood simple algorithmic patterns and all this is is a simple tesselation one unit building into another , but he did have a good brain along with many others during the renaissance, perspective and multiple viewing and hiding patterns becomes the main pillars of art as we move into the age of enlightenment. Simple repetition devices and the use of the triad arrangement in art subliminally force the viewer to find a path through a work of art. This pattern seems to have a rotational element to it which may have some connection to the golden rule which was beginning to be seen in nature. The re-finding of the ancient texts and following the rules the ancient sources like Vitruvius on architecture influenced people like C Wren so it is not too far a stretch to think that similar influences might ...just might be used by Newton when trying to solve a simple problem. He never did anything as is.
  18. DrLarry
    I have no idea subliminal recognition may also play a part in all this, propaganda art has always been a factor in coins. The very fact that a kings image exists on a coin is to present this to the population they would never see him...well most. The transmogrification idea rests somewhere perhaps in the idea of the DEI GRATIA by the anointing of a the king as the servant in a christian world to God. The christian motif of lion and Lamb is used periodically in imagery and images are the most powerful method of control in a generally illiterate population. The use of the Lion when it does appear what is its meaning as a design element what does it say? I think designs are not chosen in coins just to make a pretty statement they are there for a purpose. This is something we have to acknowledge whether the lion is obvious or hidden. I dont know maybe the whole lion in the head of a king goes back to the Nemean lion skin that Alexander has on his head, stolen from the demigod Hercules a transitional entity not true god but half god let's face it the divine right of kings was a pretty strong reality. Iconography and propaganda is a complex weave or purpose and manipulation. How better to do that than the coins in the pocket that keep you alive buying protection and security. The designs on Roman and Greek coins served a purpose to re-enforce the power of the state or empire and what is on the very first coin a Lion and a weaker sacrificial animal ram, lamb, or calf on the obverse of the stater. What is more interesting however is what exists in the recessive reverse which if you examine them are very interesting as much so as the raised area. this has kept me interested in coins now for a few years seeking interest in part of the history of coining since 700bc to the present. I find it all intriguing and it forces me to ask questions rather than take a passive approach to collecting
  19. DrLarry
    I think it serves simply as I have mentioned as a method to primarily reduce counterfeiting the lion standard was used as a measure of sterling and marked from Queen Anne onwards. Once you have developed the grid and have a pattern for it it is a simple process of inking and then dipping in the correct reagents which would corrode and etch line and or depth according to a simple formula of letting the planchets or the bars rest in the reagents for a specific time. It is similar to the reverse when silver salts are used on photographic film and when you want to bring out those light exposed areas you place them for a specific time to produce an image. The photosensitivity of silver salts has been known since the 17th early 18th C and I think the alchemy that Newton was involved in could quite easily have led to a discovery of this phenomena. Why would this remain a secret ? I dont know the answer for that perhaps it is mixed up with the trial of the Pyx or the fact that in one form or another the design has continued to be used in some form or another why expose a secret if you dont have to. I assume workers at the mint worked in separate areas of the process and perhaps did not appreciate the whole process. It is a very elaborate tail I have no idea and yes of course you may be right it may be re-enforced time after time. If so after a further year of studying it I get nowhere I will abandon the idea. I thought I would broaden this out a little and ask the forum. I do not intentionally set out to deceive or initiate a hoax I just wanted to present some observations in case anyone could also identify some aspects of the riddle.
  20. DrLarry
    The latter. It would seem to me to make sense in the later 17th C to seek out a way to reduce the counterfeiting of silver which threatened along with variable prices in continental veres British silver to undermine the economy. I am suggesting that a simple process of chemistry could enable those who understood this matrix design to identify it quickly by a simple chemical reverse reaction to discover centres of counterfeiting in and around the country. It can come of no surprise that the rise of the banks could have acted in some pivotal role to quickly identify silver that was not authentic quickly. In much the same way now with a paper note we stick under UV light. The choice of the pattern is simply down to a simple triangulation anomaly that allows a design of a lions head to mirror with add ons the triangular nature of a lambs head. Of course the two have a religious connotation and I thought initially the idea may have developed out of the the whole idea of transmogrification the King or queen being both protector and nurturer and the lamb and lion being the direct idea that christ was both lamb and lion. But I am in no way religious but that is not to ignore the fact that this may have been part of the motivation for these symbolic emblems.
  21. DrLarry
    the fundamental difference is that when you lift a bunnies tail or a dogs tail any dogs tail that is you dont always see Jesus up its arse. The pattern I register exists taking into account a few variables in all the coins I have studied thus far. It is not that I wish to see it , I am just acknowledging the possibility. I have a duty to explore the possibility if it were in fact true then it would allow us to spot fakes, it would explain a lot of strange patterns on a coins face, it may also help answer some lost history all of which are interesting in themselves but there are other indications and consequences too.
  22. DrLarry
    my "slight" understanding of my own brain is a helpful pace to start
  23. DrLarry
    yes I can see the image of Jesus too . accepted the brain can create many things
  24. DrLarry
    yes true and likes you it brings pleasure to me too
  25. DrLarry
    we have gone through this whole pareidolia issue time and time again as a geophysicist my mind views the world a little differently that is a sure thing I am not saying that this whole "seeing elvis in a rabbits arse" is the way to approach this but it is something one has to acknowledge as a possibility. However if this is a learnt behaviour from me it is a rather complex one relying on the triangulation of points to render a 3 D image on a 2 dimensional plane. The maths is euclidean I suppose something that was a major consideration in the 17th C as mapmakers searching for a method of representing a sphere on a flat surface had to wrestle with the process of what is effectively like a rasterization process in modern computer graphics. I do not think that I have learnt a behaviour of looking for a triangular arrangement of |Lion to Lamb and the other design elements. I have no affinity to either a lion, a lamb, Jesus or elvis in a bunnies arse. I am simply describing a set of forms that re-appear over and over in a set pattern and trying to make sense of them. In the same way as I had to learn to read geophysical noise and data to seek patterns likely to match the physical geology in the well logs of a drill section all of which have to form a broad pattern to generate oil or gas and then be captured by structural geology so this is much the same. Now rather than trying to win the Radio 4 stand up comedy award seek to examine what you have and look beyond the obvious and see if you can register any similar pattern. However if a bunnies bottom is more appealing then continue to look that way. The world is flat ....the world is now round the earth is the centre of the universe according to the pope one year the sun is the centre of the system the next decade. It is not beyond the alchemic skills of the late 17th C or the complex euclidean mathematics to achieve a net that allows a series of design elements to be rendered into metal via a simple chemical process. I am simply recording on this forum the patterns that keep on appearing. I have a skill for pattern recognition nothing more . I have for example a collection of over 3500 four leaf clovers. I see a patch and they appear to me some may call this "MAGIC" others say it is a simple relationship between walking the dogs in a field of clover and a minds ability to pull out a pattern of four our of a myriad of threes. I am not a magician I simply bother to look at the world around me.
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