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DrLarry

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Everything posted by DrLarry

  1. DrLarry
    yes my apologies for yesterday's outburst against your football enthusiasms it is simply the idea of another two weeks of having to endure it, for me sport is a political tool and I really do not enjoy Russian politics at this moment in time. I will try harder to block it out on here in order to preserve any drindling sanity I have left.
  2. DrLarry
    Thank you Jerry for your opinion I appreciate the time to reply. I don't really see it as elaborate fantasy in truth I do not know what process results in the pattern. I always recognised a serious problem in understanding this. I also expressed a degree of reticence at the die imposed theory and had postulated alternatives. I think the best thing is for me to improve my process of imaging this, collate all the evidence and submit it as a serious research proposal. Or alternatively write a very interesting and novel book on mental health. I will of course list the examples of the 1860 penny. I have a couple of examples one with the tail one with internal metal of the underlying letter altered. I have taken a little time to read references to boulton's interest in a strange etching technique which he purchased the patent and a few obscure references to a unique process as part of the minting process. Heaton purchased some of the the machinery from the soho mint after it sold. Blanks historically where predominantly struck by Birmingham companies as you say under contract to the mint. I enjoy the challenges as long as those that challenge me do so from a position of fully understanding the ideas. However I do accept that collectors will not wish to waste time looking at the idea if they cannot see beyond the very obvious flaws in the concept. As I say in many places this same inertia prevented me looking at the physical evidence but I have acknowledged the difficulties and still try to understand what might be there. I am a generally sceptical person, I am generally evidence driven and will endeavour to apply all the normal parameters I would apply to resolve any unknown. It is hard to remain open minded but I will try to stay flexible in my approach. Thanks for your input. Larry
  3. DrLarry
    Then discuss the weather or something a whole lot more interesting I am simply quoting the moderator
  4. DrLarry
    Sorry to quote the moderator this has all become a little bit non coiny so henceforth this posting should be stopped ...next thing of course will be that England getting to this stage is down to Brexit and our renewed superiority in the world. jingoistic nonsense
  5. DrLarry
    yes agreed in part but the first attempts to rectify the problem with currency after the stoppage on the 1750's with numerous references to the counterfeit problem in the GII's. Also later in the 1770s the issues in 70 to 75 led to an even greater forging. True there may have been a still great need for the lower denominations but it would seem the initial coppers were made to appear to all intents to deceive the penalty being deportation it was after all treason so it has to be worth someone's effort and risk. Later when the strictness of the law forbade this first round but seemed to look less harshly on "tokens" was it not then that the creation of the non regal series including tokens like Britons glory, and the alfreds and the many others I find it a joy to collect came into circulation? It was not until the 1780's that the tokens "Condors" began to be released issued locally the earliest copper tokens I have is from 1730's. Whatever the reasons be they the need for the lower denominations in the 1770's because of the circulation of the worn out later 17th C early 18th C coppers there existed an opportunity for some to make money. If I am reading Peck and the soho book correctly and atkins it is a fine line between the needs and the lucrative counterfeiting of copper, especially for circulation in the colonies. I have never held the position that it makes that much money but I know from the few hundred examples I have that the weight varies from as much as 3 grams almost below the copper level to usually about 1 gram difference. Obviously it did make money for some businesses the Machin's Mills coppers found in various horads attest to a similar process in the US of counterfeit Williams and Georges. you do not have to make a lot of money for the risk be be worthwhile in the end if the weigh value of the copper can give two half pennies for the melt value of one G II half penny then I am sure someone did the maths the net weight of a regnal is about 9.3 grams or so most of mine are 6 or 7 grams =/- 1 gm. The earliest of the trade tokens I have are from the early 1700's from ireland. I have a few of the George II non regnals and they are also about 2 grams light.
  6. DrLarry
    A kick in the teeth would be better than a tory......oooppsss sorry we have been getting that the past how many years already double whammy kick in the teeth and tories.....Gods preserve us
  7. DrLarry
    yes for a long time I had considered that the design has to be die related but over time I am not so sure that is the case I think the pattern shows a rotational symmetry which allows it be present across the coin in different forms. I believe now that it is part of the blank planchet cutting or the rolling or pressing out which are then treated and etched the design then applied . Whilst areas which show it are ones which for some reason or another happen to roughly correspond to the underlying pattern. For example the Lions head in the shield and the drapes of the under the seated britannia. I had toyed with the idea that this was in someway an addition made by the engravers but I do not really think this to anything more than a confluence. The geometry is rather fascinating to me and I have reconstructed a large portion of it but do not have the brain power to compute the weaving of the three major elements of it which are (i think) created using a Wolf Net which allows the 3D to be transferred into 2D flat designs, 3D images into 2D plane were part of the new methods of designs as far back as the renaissance
  8. DrLarry
    In south Africa pink rand circulates around the townships knowingly safe so long as it remains in the closed economy, once outside it becomes worthless. Pound coins were imperceptible until it becomes economically damaging and leads to wholesale withdrawal with new and more complex security markings I was looking at some today and are a range of security aspects to the coin some base like the bimetallic process others obvious like the one pound twice in ever side and the date which you cannot see with the naked eye together with some more complex elements which may be only viewable by the checking machines in banks and the RM , the assay office make such devices I am sure the same could be argued for the RM in the past. If you know the algorithm used to create such a device then you can as an authority spot it. Economies have always to a lesser or greater degree had counterfeit coins in circulation they are taken serious when the levels reach a certain point otherwise they are left
  9. DrLarry
    i do not think they are indiscernible to authorities I am sure partly with the advent of the Banks identifying forgeries in a certain vicinity might allow the law to act upon an area with some forces to identify the sources. My feeling is if my silly old brain within a few months of collecting pennies a few years back can detect it then the trained eye would find this much easier. It is not an expensive process to ink and chemically alter the surface by etching and really can swiftly be incorporated into the minting process at limited cost so if the pattern remains undetected then why fix something that is not broken. the human brain is as good as any computer at detecting non random patterns once trained. That it has remained a secret does not surprise me a great deal there are many aspects of history that have been so plain in view that they may not have been noticed for hundreds of years. As I say only with the advent of a new technology do we get to see something that may be knowledge known to a select few not that I am saying the system is failure proof. The other interesting thing is that ....oh sorry I am getting away with myself. perhaps after another few years of research I might be able to validate my views LOL at least I have voiced them for posterity. It is common in silver in fact the effect is marked in silver and have been doing quite a bit of work on crowns and half crowns of William III .....I have limited access to gold and chemistry more complex on the basis of its chemical inter nature. I think in silver it is more common than the base metals I just have more examples of the latter to play with. I also think that it is expressed more in the transition to bronze simply because of the change on the technique and the chemistry hence why I saw it in the bronze first. although I might also add that the counterfeiting of copper coins in the later 1700's must surely have been one of the most deliberate acts using base metal to make a few pounds, most are obvious fakes but to an illiterate population easily accepted. Counterfeiting has to adapt to not be caught and coinage to adapt to counter the counterfeiters. Certainly I seem to have found a ever more complex pattern over time applying new layers to the weave.
  10. DrLarry
    It is interesting when I chat with young people how many of them prefer this approach to the values of market economies and market forces dictating and the fact that many feel very disenfranchised by these terrible Tories.....there is a great new book in the Horrible Histories series. AS for that Rees-Mogg character verses Corbyn I certainly would choose the latter but then again I am a socialist liberal and anything would be better than a tory.
  11. DrLarry
    no offence intended in the "old boy" comment it was used merely to point out long term members and novices and some difference in approaches, and yes you did comment on them. I suppose in the last year I have become interested in the idea of the Royal Mint marking coins in some way in order to protect against forgeries and it may well be this that I might be finding. The fact that the same images appear as far back as the great re-coinage of the late 17th C or even prior to this time with milled coinage is either my brain tricking me or has something in it( the idea that is, not my brain). It is a welcome aside to this that makes me find strange things in styles of lettering and overstamping. The history of that 46 shilling is that it seems a die fracture occurs and for some reason an attempt is made to fix it by grinding down and re-punching as you say. It surprises me a little they would go to such an effort. I think the main reason as I have mentioned before is that if there is some type of simple device used then it serves to aid us in the detection of fakes. It is most unlikely that the RM would ever admit to using such devices because if I am not mistaken they still may be using it well certainly I find it within the early decimal series it seems to get more complex with the advent of the new computer aided systems.
  12. DrLarry
    I admit also to essentially destroy most of my coins in the process of discovery. Most of what I find lies covered and it's a bit like an archeological dig sadly the top layer is removed in order to get back to the underlying. I do believe that the Royal mint are fully aware of the science of circulation and know full well that once a coin comes off the presses it matters not one iota because at that moment anything they may have done to the coin , evidenced by the coins themselves will never be seen by the millions and millions of times it is handled. Hence if you want to disguise something the very best way to do this is not to bother at all. Only with microscopes and digital imagery can we begin to see these unobserved aspects of a coins history. I of course keep a few mint condition coins and I can still see the indentations below the lustre but then again I am looking for them.
  13. DrLarry
    but in that very issue I find a fundamental difficulty that even I in much of my own research have discovered and I am just a amature sleuth. The lustre, on a high end pennies or other bronze obscures a lot of what would be recognisable as errors, only with circulation is this "cover" removed. Circulation will of course alter the surface of a coin and the randomness of the wear has to also acknowledge that a coin has a design which can "direct" some of the cuts, scratches and other such elements, however if a pattern appears over and over again this would become less and less statistically the underlying cause. Also as I have found for myself in hundreds of cases the grime coverts up a multitude of overstamping errors and significant alterations of the type of lettering and size of lettering used. I am afraid that I still have not got my head around the idea that if there is wholesale alteration from one font type and size to a completely different type then such examples are varieties in the true sense of the word. And yes I know all the arguments you "old boys" apply but it seems to me that the reason for collecting coins and understanding their history is less about the coin than it is about how much it is worth. If lettering is repunched a set of punches is prepared as in the case of the bronzes by the engraver to be used on his design. If then these prove to have a flaw or to create a technical problem with use which results in them having to be re- punched then for sure in my mind this is an interesting aspect of the coins history in the making. Yet as I have discussed with Jerry on the N over Z 1860 there are a number of alteration with this die, smaller letters changed, and the N of PENNY also shows that the N is over a Z on the second N making a double N/Z in some cases which is picked out by the die flaw.
  14. DrLarry
    it seems clear on some 1879 pennies that this area has been ground down so making the indentation flush with the surface of the coin once again but the scar can still be seen. And people do seem a little guarded at times which seems to run a little contrary to the purpose of a forum, so I can only surmise that there must be some reason why.
  15. DrLarry
    well it is not perhaps even reluctance it maybe that some strange things seem too strange. LIke the shuttle on the top of the 1879 penny. Luckily the post was spotted and another came up. Then there was real investigation for the reason behind such a strange large addition of metal, and in the raised metal lumps and bumps section of the Freeman book the very obvious existence of this strange type is not mentioned.
  16. DrLarry
    I would like to start a new and I think, important feed. I want to ask you to consider if we are losing out on greater understanding of coins in our collections because people are hesitant to be upfront about oddities, errors, over stamping, and other varieties? I have many examples of 1 type of strange coin in my collections it may be for example an 1860 penny where there is what appears to be an R under a B in BRITT. I sit around looking and looking for pieces to confirm this but hesitate to ask others. Am I hesitating because I want to be the first to find something and as a result miss out as a group activity to compare and share? If I look at a coin and see something odd I have a tendency either to pass it off as a singular error when it could be something others have seen. In the spirit of openness I would like to start to share my strange coins and hope that I do not upset anyone but undermining some economy associated with collecting, simply because I would hope think that we collect because of interest in the subject not just how much some coin is worth. I will begin with the 1846 shilling with three colons after REG :. The R under B in the 1860 penny the Possible B under R half penny 1862 could be just a die run but seemingly corresponding to the "strange sticky out bit" commonly seen on 1861 and 1862 half pennies in BRITT.
  17. DrLarry
    they all end up looking so similar
  18. DrLarry
    many thanks ....
  19. DrLarry
    James being the uncle?
  20. DrLarry
    yes I am sure that is a possibility and yet the LCW on the half penny does not even arrive until 1861 however the lateness in the year by the the time they started apparently made them carry on minting 1860 at the same time as 61's no doubt I am sure in part to appease the public view on a pretty shambolic adventure. Please forgive me if I am wrong but the toothed type of half penny with the rounded lighthouse is the same die modified for the 1861 LCW which suggests that the LCW went on after 1860 and the many examples I have show the movement of the LCW shifted slightly to the right for the W of WYON and the C is above the existing C
  21. DrLarry
    All the old heads are signed I think
  22. DrLarry
    sorry I meant to type Leonard LEONARD not Lawrence
  23. DrLarry
    One of the most interesting aspects to looking at coins differently is that you begin to be aware that what appears to be a flat surface of even depth across a coin face is in fact not the case in many designs. Yes of course you have the rise of the design but if you look with a lot of care you begin to see "mounds" and depressions. I have often looked in these areas as areas of activity. Working on the basis that some kind of change may correspond to these areas of alteration, often reduction in the field and this has lead to speculate on what the impact of these "changes" would have on the die and its practical use and life eventually leading to die failures. It forces the question about the "technical difficulties" during the first couple of years. If we read the diaries correctly it took Wyon 6-8 months to have the dies ready and delivered. If the changes are radical enough then you have to ask how long to prepare a new set with the design which is workable. Can anyone who has them tell me if the dies of the 1862 half penny A B C type vary and if so how and also in the 1863 numbered dies? are the dies different in any way other than the numbers and the letters. I have found it strange and difficult to understand is why the letter A around the lighthouse changes its position a few times. I assume that a set of dies marked with an A had some difference to dies set with a B and a C or else why refer them as dies C and B .
  24. DrLarry
    the other issue is that because of the reasons people have raised before the human mind finds it easy I think to search for letters and numerals and the signature L C WYON is an easy one to "lose" having only the O and the C which form a line which is less easily mistaken for cut line in the vertical strokes. L W Y and N can be disguised the N less so a little. So I am careful not to jump to conclusions unless I have strong evidence.
  25. DrLarry
    yes I know these are mysteries and in the 62 with the signature removed in part leaving a few metallic dots which I believe is a rare one. In the method I use it is often necessary to go beyond the surface into the metal I have to take great care to try to work out the difference between a scratch and a line which is not the result of random wear. This is of course a subjective process. So I tend to ur on the side of caution and underestimate the underlying lines as wear is so random it would be hard to fully comprehend the patterns created by this. I do not know the answers to these mysteries but they were the motivation behind why I started looking. hence the need to understand the man himself and the history of the RM and its practice. I will persist and eventually I will suggest some explanation again based on the evidence from the coins itself as records and sources are often fragmented and biassed whereas the coins (yes they do tell stories of their circulation) the underlying evidence is there. It is the assigning of a plausible explanation that will always be the problem and method to uncover the basis for such theories always with hazards (notwithstanding the onslaught from the non-believers) LOL
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