DrLarry

true but there are so many that are ambiguous there is a "G over an O " farthing 1822 listed at the moment which is obviously a squash to the bar and down spike, of course the books can tell us things that is not to say we always learn or we learn how to slowly apply pressure onto a piece of metal until it looks right, I am not suggesting this has happened by his hand of course. I purchased a 56 farthing from him and I am certainly going to go back and look, it was an E over an R I am going to post the images but I think it has been tooled. The problem is you get things and are so excited to have one in the collection that you just overlook things at times ....Do you know I think I have been conned the R has been tooled I think and then aged it is a pretty fabulous job the work if it is is highly skilled the R's on many farthing run into each other along the bottom bar and this has been squashed flatter which you can only see once the coin in angled . YOur opinions please

I always try and add a report in when we find these things on ebay I think the more of us that simply do that if nothing else there is a chance they might get pulled off . Sad thing is there are so many of them. I notice is a lot on the US site in particular, sites that will not allow overseas shipping, they will not show up unless you have a US address and are in the US site. I think maybe they will not sell to the UK because there is a better chance of them being found out on British coins.

yes the chinese have managed to age coins pretty well especially darkening silver

she seems to have very Pert lips

Glass cutting oil works nicely on modern coins well early decimal at least so far the results are good in proof coins as well.

oh great thanks very much I would really appreciate it ...have a great day Larry

In silver it works in the exact same way the oil gets into the pattern and you can watch as it emerges. Making it a simple method for the authorities to recognise fake from the real thing. I am going to start going back in time certainly it is in the 1817 Half crown and even in very worn examples the pattern emerges. Of course what I had been doing the past couple of years was pushing oil from the brush into the surface. I could never work out why when I went back to specimens I had previously examined I had to stimulate the image by brushing of course the oil had dried out. I seems to be in the 1697 crowns and half crowns and shillings ....Yes they do indeed the same suture like lines criss cross the surface and the same serrated forms outline the lions and the Lambs it is best with a heavier oil which begins to be absorbed over time (dont do it on very good coins ) there does seem to be a direct correlation between the amount of time the oil has to seep into the sutures. William III crowns show it very nicely there is for sure a very distinct variation in the porosity. Of course the only true way to show this on the surface of a coin other than the direct images would be to use an electron microscope. YOU may wonder how you can go to the very very small to the very large. It seems to be a simple mathematical relationship of line to dots which is why I do not think this pattern just happened in the late 17th C I am going to keep pushing back see if I can find the origin

here is the penny 1861 from which the new oil image was taken I was simply going through and though random coins sorting out my desk top and this is a nice example but I am sure I will find you exactly the same images showing the same serrated lines and cauliflower type dark and light lines on any number of pennies. There are at you can see no discernible scratches on this coin and these lines that radiate out are part of the pattern development they are not scratches . The light and dark dendritic forms are variations in colour created by the overlapping of the pattern groups. There is a distinct mathematical relationship between the sizes of each successive head decreasing by 50 % each time and you can measure these in groups but once they reach a certain size the unit type shifts and the sequence is lost becoming then an increasing or decreasing unit in another direction. It is also very interesting when you apply the oil especially on the Green pennies whihc have porosity you can see the air being forced out of the suture and points allowing the oil to enter. In the Green pennies this gives them a better chance to show the pattern than most. It is for this reason that this pattern showed itself in the first place . Once buried the variable porosity created by the pattern is attacked at differing rates allowing corrosion to bubble up along the pattern boundaries. Only once you know the pattern does this apparent irregularity appear to have a regular pattern attached to it . This may have a ramification in that it might allow us to be able to track the time and depth underground according to the rate of the corrosion and the overall acidity of the percolating ground waters. YOu might well say well if there is a date on a coin we know perhaps how long it has been buried but not necessarily we could guess at the degree of circulation but if there is a chemical reaction that is controlled by the "normal; pattern of soil PH it might help with the dating of archeological horizons

so far sesame oil is best. In this example remain focused on the lion in the centre first outlined by light lines. At its nose is a lamb which is darker on some I will try get one for you below Once your eyes have captured the scene of the centre section you can begin to follow the pattern around to the outstretched leg to the left the paw usually rests on the lap of Britannia (I dont know why but it is very common on about 60% of the images. Up from the centre you can see the enlargement of the lion and down from it the lamb becomes part of the reducing sequence . The the right a Larger head begins which borrows from the one to the left but the head has shifted by about 20 degrees and if you can hold that pattern you can follow the larger lion. Always 100% there is a small sequence which is just to the right and up a little from the lap of Britannia of a full maned lion with lamb on two hind legs reaching up to the lions nose. These points of intersection always occur by following the intersections eventually you will be able to uncover the motif that fits each pattern group or (unit) I call them. But dont worry if you cannot see all the units there in this are around 50 or so units with positioning that variries and associations. There is also in this one the Horse rider zig zag as I call it but I will show you that tomorrow

I asked him once whether the other account was linked he told me it was his cousin...I noticed soon after that the results started to appear as Private (I do find that part of bidding on ebay quite wrong) I used to buy off him quite a lot until recently I dont trust them anymore But he has obviously got himself a few new books and is going through them like a dose they seems to fall into his lap

One is a wolf and the other a hand offering up a flower. When I first saw them back in the early 80's I also would spend ages desperately trying to make out a dinosaur or some mythical beast. IN time my eyes became used to pulling things out of what appeared to be the "noise" and now when I look at them it may take a couple of seconds longer than looking at any other image but they become clear very fast. YOu are entering the FOrbidden Zone !!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE AWARE YOU SHOULD NOT BE READING THIS!!!! it is my thread and I advise you against going any further. I think today I made a breakthrough. I have been going over my 1861 collection and thinking simple stupid my rule when looking for evidence knowing that not only is it me that must see what I am seeing , if correct someone must have also had to see it (other than me and one friend I have who also collects and can see the lions all the time now ) So today I tried oil immersion I remembered in Geology we would often use oil in a number of ways firstly to help with metal ore recognition a polished section is immersed in oil in order to reduce the internal refraction if I remember rightly and also we used it to calculate the specific gravity of minerals. So I thought I would give it a go. Oh how dearly I wish you could see what I see, it is a thing of such sublime beauty when you see it you will one day (I am sure I have faith in you all) see a level of beauty beyond the surface and in to the coin . I am not sure what it is that makes it appear so pleasing , whether it is the novelty of seeing it day after day or it is something in its meaning. ( I do not mean X Ray vision before any funny comments begin) The way the ribbons wind in on themselves and the method that the design uses to show the rotation of the lions head or the sensitivity of the lion to nose of Lamb or the way the Lions head becomes part then of a lambs head and or the way that the images morph in front of your eyes as the eye wanders for a fraction of a moment returning then to a similar place but not so often the exact same place, and you see something else. Layer upon Layer of design folded in and through it is a truly remarkable thing. Jerry you mentioned it is almost religious in it nature and yes I would 100% agree with you on that. It is certainly magical. The oil immersion works quite well I suppose it actively removes the glare and allows the surface to be see without the surface debris (almost) It shows very well the darker lines (which I refer to as sutures) that the coin face has over most of it and it helps pick out the forms. I find my mind in these last few weeks capable of seeing it in much greater detail than I have previously and this method helps quite a lot. I think that perhaps you maybe are not quite understanding what it is I am seeing and what makes up the design. ( and yes Jerry I know you still don't like the "How does it get there part") in any case you lot are not supposed to be reading this. But in case you are I am going to explain how you too can see if in your microscopes as I believe this might be part of the problem. It requires Binocular vision relying on the eye overlapping the pattern in order to be able to make it out, (no it is not like the magic eye pictures you cannot just go boss eyed relax and let the image come (they were discovered in the 70's with computers) although essentially the eye does do that all the time to some extent when building up a 3D image. So get yourself a few old pennies Victorian ones are the ones I have used mostly I prefer the n61 but recently found the 79 works nicely too (however do not expect to see it equally on all pennies) the ones that work the best are the ones that look as if they have fingerprints on them. Now for me I like to brush the surface with a sable brush or remove as much of the surface grime if it is a mess with a cotton bud. I know you dont like to touch these precious things , which is why you do it with old ones. If you are gentle you will begin to see a series of black lines appear they look like the serrated edge of a saw and often form arcs which are thick at one end and thin within about half the width of the penny. My favourite spot is the field on the reverse to the right of Britannia . If you are courageous try a small amount of olive oil I am trying now with refined Linseed and rape and poppy see oil and sesame oil to see if one is better than the other. watch and with luck you will begin to see the images emerge (I am not guaranteeing you seeing it) but what you should look for are a series of very fine ribbon like meanderings like a snail trail a fraction of a mm thick they are usually darker. The are like the septal lines of an ammonite often fine filamentous lines that join up over the surface of the coin. A second type of line thicker than these also forms again it appears frilled and dark. But they are not jet black so do not expect some crazy perfect creature to leap out. But you have to ask yourself then the question "what are these lines?" well you do if you are me. What is the pattern they form. Now I would not expect any of you to see them as I see (I have said that many times) but I am not giving up on you all just yet (and Threepence you should not even be reading this, you think it is a load of old shit so STOP READING NOW !!!) that is unless you want to put in another tuppence ha'penny 's worth in.... but then you will be a ha'penny short of your usual monetary value. Eventually after looking at several 1000 coins and seeing the same old pattern over and over again always the same sequences and positioning in terms of the design (but not always in the same place on the coin face) you will eventually see it as clearly as you see those magic eye pictures. Two themes intertwine The ribbons that strike across the coin face are a series of little men on horseback with a spear and a dragon. Shifted upper and lower and in a checker pattern the Lions and Lambs heads eventually will clear after a few hundred attempts. YOu are lucky mind you I had to work it all out for myself I am "helping " you along by 2 years or maybe 3. I know you don't want your coin club filled with the rantings of a silly fool but one day you might thanks me for my tenacity of spirit. If even two or three of you see it and I mean the pattern lines not the meaning then that is a step forward. I don't really mind that none of you are reading this all I have to do is write it and that in itself makes me feel satisfied I have tried to help you. I perhaps feel the empathy the lion feels for the Lambs as they snuggle into each other with such love and affection my heart always sings inside when I see the relationship. Or you can take the position of the wicked St George who persists in Killing this poor Dragon across the coin over and over again (follow the spear). This Passive Aggressive theme if found to be true may be part of the very nature of our western philosophical approach for if it is found that what I am telling you week in and week out is true the subliminal messaging is a terrifying prospect even if unintended. But OH know I hear you cry a conspiracy theory .....no not at all I am sure the images are as I have said a security measure (thanks Jerry) the idea of Subliminal messaging was not even discovered until the 1950's. But yet coins have been at the forefront of the most fundamental aspect of propaganda for nearly 3000 years. I am sure none of you could disagree with me on that one although I am sure you will. I hope that if you do try rather than expect me to give you the answers you will have by now (if you look carefully enough) have seen the strange sutures and the dark lines. The lucky ones may be able to make out the Larger Triangular shaped forms of the Lions heads relating to smaller triangular shaped forms the Lambs. For the keen eyed you may see the horseman. There is a good chance that if you follow to the right of the rose on the portrait and use your brush the horseman will appear the folded wings of the dragon are often seen in the serrated edges of the rose leaves. I had thought that something more complex is going on here relating to a lost piece of the design A badge or pendent on the right breast which had the ST George Dragon directly underneath.

every week they appear get sold then reappear either they come back like boomerangs or a cousin sells them back

LOL yes I know I have to use it often when I write gibberish There you go I added it all to the first one as a economy measure

i do wish someone would there are a lot of varieties that even I have noticed which differ from the numerous ones he lists. They are the kind of collection you do need a microscope for I would not have a hope in hell of seeing anything at all if not LOL

m going to write that in my addition of Rogers in case anyone should update it at some point

If the 'onions' referred to in the phrase is indeed human rather than vegetable, there is another Mr. Onions that could be our man. S. G. Onions (they were strong on initials in those days) created sets of coins which were issued to English schools from 1843 onwards. These were teaching aids intended to help children learn £.s.d. (pounds, shillings and pence). They looked similar to real coins and had inscriptions like '4 Farthings make 1 Penny' or, as in the example pictured, '12 Pence make 1 shilling'. We can imagine that 'knowing your Onions' might be coined, so to speak, in those circumstances. although it does say the first in print reference was in 1920

by S G Onions , it is strange that in the listing of these little coins by Rogers he does not make that connection, but I am sure you are right. I would have thought it was the kind of novel thing he would have said.

Oh ....yes I am sure now you say it you are right by S G Onions , it is strange that in the listing of these little coins by Rogers he does not make that connection, but I am sure you are right. I would have thought it was the kind of novel thing he would have said. If the 'onions' referred to in the phrase is indeed human rather than vegetable, there is another Mr. Onions that could be our man. S. G. Onions (they were strong on initials in those days) created sets of coins which were issued to English schools from 1843 onwards. These were teaching aids intended to help children learn £.s.d. (pounds, shillings and pence). They looked similar to real coins and had inscriptions like '4 Farthings make 1 Penny' or, as in the example pictured, '12 Pence make 1 shilling'. We can imagine that 'knowing your Onions' might be coined, so to speak, in those circumstances. although it does say the first in print reference was in 1920 I'm going to write that in my addition of Rogers in case anyone should update it at some point i do wish someone would there are a lot of varieties that even I have noticed which differ from the numerous ones he lists. They are the kind of collection you do need a microscope for I would not have a hope in hell of seeing anything at all if not LOL

yeah those are cute characters too there are a few in that series of different denominations . I may be wrong I assumed them to be some kind of educational teaching aid to learn the rather complex system of £ S D. at the moment I have only the shilling and penny

I hope so I know it is not strictly coins but they are interesting history. I do have a few Moore pennies and half pennies and the tiny ones I found one in its tiny little box the other day in the US still wrapped in the paper . I like model coins I think the design for the two shillings with Britannia in her cart with the sea horses is a beautiful item I wish it had been made into a coin. :)

oh Ok let me know if you have any GV ones, I was lucky enough to find a small hoard of Spanish ones uncirculated which are not listed in Rogers (if you ever get collectors always happy to swap) I am always interested in the rarer Baviens and Balmberger types. Let me know Larry. I do miss Dorset so much

In fact can I broaden this and ask if anyone has coins that show considerable corrosion on the surface even irregular corrosion having been buried as I wish to study variable corrosion on the surface of coins (not Roman ) thanks

LOL yes I do too, do you have them because you are collecting them ?

I am in search of Green Pennies , pennies and half pennies that have been buried. I know many of you might find the idea strange (well it is me ) but I am doing some experiments with green pennies and wondered if anyone has any they have dug which they might be looking to get rid of (cheap!) usually collectors don't like them so they have limited value except to strange people but I find them useful. Victorian ones are best but also earlier dates pennies or half pennies perhaps farthings. The process of the gradual replacement of the outer layer of copper alloy by percolating ground waters usually results in a complex of mixed carbonates and oxides and I ,being a fossil man, am interested in the transition. Happy to buy them but as happy to rent them or loan them or if you are feeling generous give them away. As long as they have not been chemically altered by that funny paste sadly on sale in many metal detecting clubs. THanks

One of the greatest enjoyments I have had in the last 4 years is the collecting, of often very beautiful, miniature coins dating from the 19thC and early 20thC. Made by the company of L Ch Lauer and a couple of other toy manufacturers Balmberger and Cooke (in the UK ?) These tiny copies usually around 13 mm are almost perfect replicas of the coinages of Victoria, Edward VII and George V (rare) with a couple of others George IV along with sets for each country. A rather expensive book by D J de Solar Rogers cover the subject in some detail and there is a wonderful online collection at the Fitzwilliam Museum donated by this author. In the four years I have been collecting the price seems to have climbed in the rarer country types USA, Germany, Belgium, French, Spain , and others. The detailing is wonderful They were made essentially as toys of course for children but of course mostly for girls in part ,I am sure, as a learning tool to learn home economics hence the name dolls House Coins. They are made of zinc, copper, tinned, brass and iron coated with gold and silver and copper. I wondered if anyone else is interested in this more obscure numismatic area of interest?