DrLarry

yes very true they do . Scott, if you are referring to the above broken letters ,these are in pennies the 1861 in fact in one particular penny broken letters I am happy to just let pass by what interests me is if any are then repaired using letters not meant for purpose, like the I over the T it's purely an anorak interest for me and I like to ask others if they also have noted it. I understand there are some very detailed works but I cannot afford them. I wish some of these extensive and deep books could be digitally made available such a lot gets missed. It is a shame that the big libraries cannot come up with an idea that distributes the burden to digitise by coming up with an idea of lending the scanners or utilising the scanners that each of us have and asks individuals to take on the responsibility of scanning research books , even if each of us did a few pages each day eventually the books would be digitised.

no It turned out I only had 48 a little short of my 80 prediction my apt to thinking I have more than I have when I see a sheet full of them soon it will be time to sell off a load and be a little more selective, I just love these old copper pennies as much as I love the bronzes yet it is hard to imagine carrying them around in the pocket shocking really any survived at all not battered and dented and scratched to pieces.

is the large 5 variety reasonably common ?

I can describe it for you which might help me and you. It is a little like a complex geometric KNOT, but rather than containing geometric lines as similar patterns do in islamic art and celtic art this one uses a triangulated association of animals, namely a Lion and usually associated with two smaller "cubs" or "lambs" in the first instance. There is a lot of artistic ambiguity in the form and it is anatomically possible that it is either or both ( as lamb and cub each have triangular forms bounded by the ears and the nose of similar dimensions at a young age ) . All of these rely on a triangular tessellation pattern. However it is complex but if you stick with the "triangle" idea alone the pattern "rotates... it moves" in the same way that a stop frame dynamic painting or picture shows movement it can do this because there are set points in the arrangement the ears, eyes, and nose. in a remarkable way the triangulation points "move" move independently yet each one contributes to the next in a ribbon like flow. So there is a definite geometry to it similar to what in modern day we would call a triangular fractal like growth pattern which uses a simple device of the sharing of elements to make up a larger form. One remarkable feature of it is, which gives it a beautiful pathos, that lion to "lamb" noses touch or the Lion licks the the Lamb. Of course this may well have an allegorical meaning Lion as protector and security but also carer together with the most obvious reference to Kingship and Protector and also Christian motif Lion and Lamb. I fully accept the bizarre nature of the theory but I am happy to continue to research it. In later coins I believe some other "knots" are added one of which appears to be a jumble linear code using the motif of HONI SOIT QUE MAL Y PENSE and a triangular association similar to the Lion Lamb one which uses the George and Dragon image. The Two later "knots" I have only thus far found to begin in the Bronze series from 1860 and there is some overlap. I only noticed it at first in the Bronze series and thought that it may have been the remnant of the "lost" design of LCW lost as a result of technical problems with the new material. (there appears to be obscure references suggesting that the first designs would not work as the relief was too high and the die had to be recut forced on the artist by the material change in 1859 1860 ) Initially I noticed that in coins buried in the soil that a pattern seemed to emerge suggesting a variable rate to corrosion and this often followed some type of non random line. There are lines which do not appear to be the result of wear or random nature. These cross the surface of the design passing through the extant design and it is these cross cutting lines that the method using lamp black and fat help me to plot. If nothing else they will show that across the surface these "cross cuts" are not random as they appear again and again in the same shape or position. The most obvious of these triangles can be seen in the shield and in the area below the drapes which pick out underlying pattern and it intrigues me if this is an intentional act or not. Other forum members have pointed out the stupidity of the idea and questioned its purpose and the method by which it might be delivered to the coin face. Together with the difficulty in the theory of how any "authority" could recognises if there is a problem with counterfeiting. Hence the need to identify a simple method or recognition which is where I returned to first principles of finding a method that could be used with materials available at the time. The method of application of this "hidden" pattern I can only assume to either by etching onto the die or etching onto the blanks. This raises the many problems that have been pointed out by members and in general I am considered the resident crack pot LOL.....but I persist for no other reason than the novelty of the approach and the skills of observation it has afforded me. I have spent my life in these strange "no man's land" scenarios so as long as my constitution holds I will try see this through to the end point. If it is not there it will make for a very funny, poignant and reflective book on the onset of mental health issues. But for now I still believe in my own sanity at least. I had hoped that a few more adventurous members would join in my quest but that seems unlikely for the moment as they cannot suspend the initial barrier to the idea , which I fully understand as I had them myself three years ago when I started to question this. As a scientist I am happy to nullify it, at some point, but not until the negative evidence outranks the positives and so far the positive is winning (in my mind). The patterns exists in Gold and Silver (often easier to see in fact) and the other metals

yes I will do once I have done a full set . I have been at it three years so no rush at the end and I would like to let you see the replication of the form in a number of different denominations and over time

i had tried graphite a couple of years ago but it was too reflective and the contrast was less obvious than I thought it might be. This new method allows me to make images and I can not unravel the Knot pattern with greater ease.

I just want to say thanks to all pf you that questioned me and pushed me I think I have gone back and considered method and purpose a lot since you did so I started at first principal and thought what would be available and why it is my method I have used the past few years gave me the results. I think now I have solved the riddle using very simple rudimentary materials and have began to get some good results. It was as simple as animal fat and lamp blacking which gets into the surface pattern and brings it forward. It has helped me begin to search in a more productive way so thanks

1860 penny B over D or O or R toothed LCW L C Wyon high trunc could you take a look and see if there are others around THanks Larry your thoughts please : there is an upstanding arc of metal in the upper loop, an addition on the right side, removal of something with an angled leg (blue) and an extension out of the back left (blue) with finishing "flicks" as in the old curly lettering. However in the negative image (second) there are lines which seem to pass through the metal indicating something like a D or an O

it is a difficult one to follow after looking at the reverse light example 3 it appears that the bottom "internal loop" may be connected to the upper internal metal strip there is a very fine line through the metal or at least it appears there is , In fig 1 you can make out a straighter leg angle of about 110 degrees

Gold Staters : has anyone ever read anything on the topic of these earliest Lydian coins that looks at the reverse indented side of the coins rather than the obvious design? I am intrigued to know if there is any significance and if there are any inverse moulds of the "hammer" marks?

Yes I am sure they would have done so too. I am not sure how old the measurement of 1 grain is is it the weight on one grain of wheat of barley? I think in the early gold staters the value was also indicated by how "complete" the lion was so a half stater had half a lion pictured. I assume trading governments must have developed a standard in grups like the Hellenic League or the Athenian Power base. I wonder if it was originally a religious order relating to metal working or smelting metal who would have made the first decisions. The fact that coinage is so linked to the gods and often is our only sources of great lost works of art like the statue of Zeus at Olympia and THe statue of Athena in the Atheneum and Parthenon. The early egyptians did not have coinage for thousands of years but they were traders

same penny

for completion sake here are the other letters of the same 60 of interest in general the coin is in a good state it was slabbed as MS62 but it has carbon spotting on the lustre and is speckled. It seems to me that all the letters have been changed from the smaller curly based type usually slender lettering and over punched with larger letters sometimes three times as in the A of VICTORIA on the of of victoria a nice base sticks out the side and this lettering length follows throughout. Only the Y of Penny on the reverse is altered

and for more enjoyment some strange things in other 1861 pennies the first a lost bar on the A in VICTORIA the second the broken T with the top of its neighbour up inside the inner circle, the 3rd is a V in VICTORIA which looks like an inverted A and the last is a broken F in F:D

here are some other candidates or red herrings

yes that one is very interesting I purchased it slabbed then freed it I will take some more picture I also thought it very strange and I agree a D or an O does seem to fit the pattern it makes I thought I had another with the same but have searched through and only found these other punch errors

interestingly in the 61 there is a lot of alteration on the PENNY initially the P appears to be much more slender it then in some dies gets over punched with a slightly rotated P this then seems to be followed up by a further repunch which attempts to fill in the gap created by the rotation and is overstamped by what appears to be an I leaving a thick P . The E NNY also in some show slender to fat lettering changes and there is a lot of alteration of the inner circle . |Am I being anal?

I wonder if the economics resulted in hiring a few that mixed up their letters in these early days there was no master engraver employed or I presume an artistic director if the master wishes to make more profit presumably he or she ( !) may have cut corners>

oh yes what am I thinking sorry a moment of temp insanity ......

ok so this was the initial offending article that led me into this little journey , yes of course it is essentially a die break and metal flow but in later specimens I will perhaps be able to illustrate that something appears to have been removed but as always I am not saying that certainly the E was once over a B just that somewhere out there an E over B may exist in full or in part. I only post these so that we can all check and have an opinion

I suppose copper powder in the recess would melt at a lower temperature than the bronze but localised proximity might bond the copper to the bronze even to allow a small extension of the life of the die. I am not 100% sure of the melting points of the two or if in the furnace without some catalyst it would be possible it certainly seems to make some sense to me and I have often wondered how they do correct things as there often seem to be errors that appear (at least with scars) to have been altered especially on the early 60's pennies and half pennies. But it must be a hell of a difficult job.

yes I imagined they might be able to do that but you would have to be pretty desperate for spare dies of mild to bad quality to need to use such an action , it is interesting that correct some things and not others

thanks I will load up these pictures in a bit of the E over B idea and also a few other strange things in one or two 61's a V over A and an A which has completely lost the bar

Jerry could you explain for me the process of "filling the die locally" do you mean physically insert a piece of metal the hope it stays in place? This little journey with this E over B? in the 61 LCW reverse is proving to be quite interesting. I will prepare the pictures and let you take a look I have gone through about 20 and there are indicators and I would value your or anyone else's input who may have some 61's Thanks