Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Do you mean this one Pete? It certainly has a bit within the loop.

 If so, it doubles with the Bramah 25c 8 over ?.

MG himself still seems very doubtful that the 8/3 exists, whereas with Royal Mint 1970 endorsement and MG's subsequent Numismatic Circular conclusions, I think we can be confident that the 8/2 is a fact in being. 

     

eight over three take two.PNG

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry - it got sent before I'd written anything.

 I sold a Bramah 25c through Spink last year - nice one, quite lustrous - £440 I think. You don't see many of them around, but not a very exciting coin for me as no-one's worked out the under-figure yet as far as I know.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Sorry - it got sent before I'd written anything.

 I sold a Bramah 25c through Spink last year - nice one, quite lustrous - £440 I think. You don't see many of them around, but not a very exciting coin for me as no-one's worked out the under-figure yet as far as I know.

Not bad at all. I've noticed some of the scarce copper varieties don't actually command big sums.

I managed to get one that was aEF from Nathan Smith for £40 last year. Considered it a bit of a bargain as you really don't see too many of them. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Right, agreed. So cutting to the chase then, do you have an example pic of what you consider to be an 8/3? Or does anybody.

Thanks in advance.

Please excuse the huge pictures, but I thought necessary to see the detail.

Below is the text from Bramah for his 25c. I have inserted red numbers to align with the features highlighted in the coin pictured left…….which is undoubtedly an example of what he was describing.

Quote

25c. ALTERED DATE. 0.- As the obv. of No. 25 but the last figure of date has been altered though it is not obvious from what. At left base of 8 is a knob, like the lower terminal of a 3 or a 5, pro-truding slightly inside the loop (1). Higher, inside same loop, are two dots, as the remains of a line (2). But on right side of 8, between its loops, is a shallow vertical stroke (3), irreconcilable with a 3 or a 5.

Something I have noticed, I think mentioned on the forum before, is the additional protrusion top right of the 8. This looks like a 90 degree corner of a numeral which has straight horizontal and vertical lines at that point.

I have also shown a second example with same features 1 to 3, although the protrusion top right is less obvious. This piece shows yet another protrusion within the top loop at bottom right side; a straight line at about 45 degrees. This was not particularly clear on the left hand coin, but is present.

When I stared at that numeral, like I used to stare at those pictures on pub walls where tigers or other things would eventually appear, I thought I could almost see a numeral 4 starting to show itself!!   

 

Combredarrowstextquestionsarrow.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Ridiculous I know!!

Not ridiculous at all Ian. Over a 4 is as plausible a theory as any other number. Others think it's over a 9 (or the other way round) 

I think it will remain a mystery.

KB coins has it as over a three - link

   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I’m at it I thought I would also show close up’s of what is now regarded as 1858/2.

I believe this type is the one Bramah has referenced as his 25b, but note that he thought the 8 was over a 3, not 2. I think this has caused some confusion, with different collectors now calling this variety both an 8/3 and 8/2

Quote

25b. ALTERED DATE. 0.- As the obv. of No. 25 but the die has been altered from 1853. The upper terminal of 3 shows to left of upper loop of 8 (1), the upper curve of 3 within upper loop of 8 (2). No trace of lower part of 3.

The left coin shows the usual flaws, which are seen running through both the top and bottom of the entire date, and also down from the 8 to the border.

The second example (right) is the earliest strike I have found for this type. On this piece the flaw only runs ‘weakly’ through the bottom of the date. This piece allows the top left of the underlying numeral to be seen more clearly because the flaw, which later develops, has not yet broken through this protrusion i.e. the protrusion clearly has a nice curve on this example.

Additionally, although not entirely convincing, this earlier piece allows better visibility within the bottom loop of the 8, to the point where one can perhaps see other features of an underneath numeral 2; highlighted in Yellow.

A final thing to note on this second early strike example is that less of the ‘upper curve’ of the underlying numeral within the top loop is visible. My guess is that the ‘die fill’, prior to re-cutting with an 8, has broken away after a number of strikes…… thereby revealing an extra portion of the 2.

 

 

combredarrowsnumbersarrowssized.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Not ridiculous at all Ian. Over a 4 is as plausible a theory as any other number. Others think it's over a 9 (or the other way round) 

I think it will remain a mystery.

KB coins has it as over a three - link

   

Thanks Mike, need to be careful not to confuse with the large numeral overdate, seen paired with the Large Rose reverse. That's a different die again, and the one where the numeral '9' discussions have happened. I am sure Bramah missed that type. See close up below.

1858 Best 8 Close Up.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Thanks Mike, need to be careful not to confuse with the large numeral overdate, seen paired with the Large Rose reverse. That's a different die again, and the one where the numeral '9' discussions have happened. I am sure Bramah missed that type. See close up below.

 

That's something mentioned in the March 1991 article by A.R.Alexander. I decided to photograph it and show here. It's not a brilliant copy of each page, but it it is readable.

 

alex 1.jpg

alex 2.jpg

alex 3.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

alex 4.jpg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My old housemaster, Father Andrew Alexander again! I wish I had got to know him better.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting but this diagram is a little confusing as it doesn't correspond to his descriptions  of the date numeral 5 on page 2 which agree with my own findings:

748949167_pennyarticle2-Copy.jpg.17fc8649e16d16c32c7f28b9ae9257ab.jpg 

the tops of the 5s are in direct contrast to my findings for dates from 1856-59.

865468494_18585zoomlargedate_edited.jpg.98c7c3e347964cdb6065d1943965a9db.jpg791627277_18585zoomsmalldate2_edited.jpg.12acd7015c704eb6a7f2830aec46a6db.jpg

large date                         small date

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly fascinating but boggles my mind after a while, and then I tend to see all sorts of things, for example, has anyone one spotted Vincent van Gogh peering through the hole in the 8? Or is it Our Lord Jesus visiting us via the medium of precious metals now instead of on a piece of toast. Pareidolia? That may be easy to say.

1318595858_1858Best8CloseUp.thumb.jpg.5479ffd577131cb5d3df8571e8207d27.jpg.c159bd56e67aa920a0e362380aa9360d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Paddy said:

My old housemaster, Father Andrew Alexander again! I wish I had got to know him better.

 

Is it the same chap, Paddy? Seriously?

Is he still alive? I only ask as that article was 30 years ago.

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Interesting but this diagram is a little confusing as it doesn't correspond to his descriptions  of the date numeral 5 on page 2 which agree with my own findings:

748949167_pennyarticle2-Copy.jpg.17fc8649e16d16c32c7f28b9ae9257ab.jpg 

the tops of the 5s are in direct contrast to my findings for dates from 1856-59.

865468494_18585zoomlargedate_edited.jpg.98c7c3e347964cdb6065d1943965a9db.jpg791627277_18585zoomsmalldate2_edited.jpg.12acd7015c704eb6a7f2830aec46a6db.jpg

large date                         small date

Yes, I noticed that Richard. I think it was a transposition error. 

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Is it the same chap, Paddy? Seriously?

Is he still alive? I only ask as that article was 30 years ago.

Sadly he died in the last 5 years. He retired from the school long before that and enjoyed his later years in a house maintained within the grounds for retired clergy. I kept seeing reports on his wellbeing in the Old Boys magazine, and kept thinking I should pay him a visit - and then he died. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, I noticed that Richard. I think it was a transposition error. 

Although neither drawing is particularly accurate - the 5  with the pointed top should be noticeably fatter, and the 5 with the bulb top should have the curved part closer to the top bar - unless he was working from completely different versions ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Paddy said:

Sadly he died in the last 5 years. He retired from the school long before that and enjoyed his later years in a house maintained within the grounds for retired clergy. I kept seeing reports on his wellbeing in the Old Boys magazine, and kept thinking I should pay him a visit - and then he died. 

Sorry to hear that. 

13 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Although neither drawing is particularly accurate - the 5  with the pointed top should be noticeably fatter, and the 5 with the bulb top should have the curved part closer to the top bar - unless he was working from completely different versions ?

Yes.

Looks as though he drew them himself and probably got the proportions wrong.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×