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craigy

have you seen the price of a kew gardens ?

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Why should the truth get in the way of a good story?

 

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23 hours ago, copper123 said:

A 1934 crown has appeared very worn as well.................I personally think these circulated , others think differently , it could have been a pocket piece as well I surpose

I doubt it. I doubt wreath crowns circulated. There just weren't many of them, and most shops wouldn't have even known what they were. I think that some owners kept them - as you say - as pocket pieces, or rubbed them clean often. Their treatment would have been the same as 'circulated' but remaining with just one person.

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I am rather inclined to think that some wreath crowns did circulate. Although crowns stopped to be minted after 1902, they would have remained in circulation (albeit in limited numbers) for quite a while longer. The 1935 crowns were minted in considerable number and I think it is likely that some of these have circulated. I even remember owning one in less than F condition when I was a child. The wreath crowns have the word "crown" written on it and I think that some unwanted coins have circulated along with the 1935s. 

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On 1/1/2020 at 8:01 PM, blakeyboy said:

My once-owned 1927 3d had obvious circulation wear on it - 15,022 from memory?

hazelman put it well- the history in my pocket in the 60's as a kid was fascinating.

I remember so clearly being given an 1860 penny in the Co-op on the corner of Crowther street  ( gone) in Kidderminster 

in about 1967 and just staring at it in wonderment- how could this still be in use after over 100 years???

 

I suppose people think the Very Rare 1971 penny is ancient....

 

Have you managed to get one of them? Crikey, some people have all the luck :P

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Ssssshhhh  Mike, I have a sealed tube of them from the first day, 15th Feb, 1971......yours for £72K.

Don't tell anyone....

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2 hours ago, Sword said:

I am rather inclined to think that some wreath crowns did circulate. Although crowns stopped to be minted after 1902, they would have remained in circulation (albeit in limited numbers) for quite a while longer. The 1935 crowns were minted in considerable number and I think it is likely that some of these have circulated. I even remember owning one in less than F condition when I was a child. The wreath crowns have the word "crown" written on it and I think that some unwanted coins have circulated along with the 1935s. 

Ok, every member of this forum is a coin collector. So here's a straw poll:

  • Did anyone here ever see a wreath crown in their change at any time?

My case is that there were only about 25,000 wreath crowns minted and the vast majority of those were 1927 which cost more than face value. So let's assume that a few kids raided their dad's collection, and knew what a crown was. They go down to their local shops and try to spend it. The shopkeeper takes one look, turns the thing over a few times, knows he has never seen one before and says "What's this then, son? Where did you get it?" or  "On your bike, I'm not taking this", or something similar.

I can say that I never saw ANY crown in change, not even a Churchill which were extremely common.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I doubt it. I doubt wreath crowns circulated. There just weren't many of them, and most shops wouldn't have even known what they were. I think that some owners kept them - as you say - as pocket pieces, or rubbed them clean often. Their treatment would have been the same as 'circulated' but remaining with just one person.

There's a 1934 example in this link which is GF/NVF - looks circulated. It's the second one sold on 5.12.16.

Notwithstanding the scarcity, and considering the price they sell for, there certainly appears to be no shortage in the supply for sale over the years.  

Edited by 1949threepence

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Ok, every member of this forum is a coin collector. So here's a straw poll:

  • Did anyone here ever see a wreath crown in their change at any time?

My case is that there were only about 25,000 wreath crowns minted and the vast majority of those were 1927 which cost more than face value. So let's assume that a few kids raided their dad's collection, and knew what a crown was. They go down to their local shops and try to spend it. The shopkeeper takes one look, turns the thing over a few times, knows he has never seen one before and says "What's this then, son? Where did you get it?" or  "On your bike, I'm not taking this", or something similar.

I can say that I never saw ANY crown in change, not even a Churchill which were extremely common.

I imagine most shopkeepers would have said something like you said above, or, "aren't these collector's pieces?", and not accepted them on the ground that they wouldn't have been able to give them back as change to other customers.    

Edited by 1949threepence
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Going back further, there was a 40 years gap when the last Young Head crowns were minted and the 1887 Jubilee crowns. Did crowns circulated in the beginning of 1880s? Probably since high grade examples are so rare and expensive.

I think the question is when did Victorian / Edwardian crowns dropped out of general circulation. Did people still used them in 1900s? Probably. And in 1910s, 1920s? We are not old enough to know. If crowns were still used in limited circulation in the 1920s and 1930s, then is it not possible that a few wreath crowns would have circulated? They were minted near Christmas so that people can give them as presents and I can imagine that a few were "spent" later on. The Royal Mint presumably advertised them every year so that people know they are available for order. 

But I do take Peckris' point that many of the worn specimens were probably pocket pieces and the wear is not due to circulation.

By the time we get to the 1965 Churchill, crowns have long stopped being circulated (even in small quantities) and it is hard to imagine people trying to spend them. Many people have quantities of these crowns and it would have been easier to take the lot to the bank.

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:28 PM, craigy said:

ok I know its ebay but why on earth would you pay around £120 for a kew gardens 50p ???   sold listings ebay

 

funny cause I still think they are listed about 4 quid in spinks   you could almost buy a 1981-4 proof half sovereign with that 

 

Its not only the Kew

Screenshot 2020-01-03 at 14.08.35.png

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Posted (edited)
On 3/23/2019 at 10:28 PM, craigy said:

ok I know its ebay but why on earth would you pay around £120 for a kew gardens 50p ???   sold listings ebay

 

funny cause I still think they are listed about 4 quid in spinks   you could almost buy a 1981-4 proof half sovereign with that 

 

triple post 

 

Edited by azda

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Posted (edited)
On 3/23/2019 at 10:28 PM, craigy said:

ok I know its ebay but why on earth would you pay around £120 for a kew gardens 50p ???   sold listings ebay

 

funny cause I still think they are listed about 4 quid in spinks   you could almost buy a 1981-4 proof half sovereign with that 

 

Double post

Edited by azda

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1 hour ago, Sword said:

Going back further, there was a 40 years gap when the last Young Head crowns were minted and the 1887 Jubilee crowns. Did crowns circulated in the beginning of 1880s? Probably since high grade examples are so rare and expensive.

I think the question is when did Victorian / Edwardian crowns dropped out of general circulation. Did people still used them in 1900s? Probably. And in 1910s, 1920s? We are not old enough to know. If crowns were still used in limited circulation in the 1920s and 1930s, then is it not possible that a few wreath crowns would have circulated? They were minted near Christmas so that people can give them as presents and I can imagine that a few were "spent" later on. The Royal Mint presumably advertised them every year so that people know they are available for order. 

But I do take Peckris' point that many of the worn specimens were probably pocket pieces and the wear is not due to circulation.

By the time we get to the 1965 Churchill, crowns have long stopped being circulated (even in small quantities) and it is hard to imagine people trying to spend them. Many people have quantities of these crowns and it would have been easier to take the lot to the bank.

It's a really interesting question, the general use of crowns.

In the early milled period, few of the general population would have ever earned or saved enough to own a crown, so I'm guessing that - like guineas etc - they were used by aristocrats for gambling with, or by businessmen etc to settle bills at clothes/furniture/antiques/grocery shops etc.

Once the population began to increase in the Industrial Revolution, there would have been a greater demand for copper and small silver but not  crowns. The 1817-1820 issue was regarded as limited and special, though there was a brief period under GeoIV when they seem to have reappeared. Then they virtually disappear in the 19thC except for limited issues for Victoria, until 1887 when they reappear for nearly 15 years. Why? Was it the emergence of a suburban office-working middle class that could afford higher denominations? It has been suggested that even then they were of very limited popularity and after 1902 the Treasury stopped bothering with them altogether, as currency. Note that the mintage figures for halfcrowns in the period far exceeds those for crowns.

They seem to have retained some measure of acceptance as commemoratives (which rarely circulated), until the early 1990s when the value was raised to £5 and they became a simple exercise in turning a profit for the Mint.

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6 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Then they virtually disappear in the 19thC except for limited issues for Victoria, until 1887 when they reappear for nearly 15 years. Why? Was it the emergence of a suburban office-working middle class that could afford higher denominations?

The ratio of crown to halfcrown ratio in circulation had never really exceeded 1:10 by mintage numbers. Hence, I think the crown denomination was never really needed. Might be it was simply reintroduced in 1887 for no other reason than "hey, we haven't minted them for decades, let's see if it catches on now". They also introduced the double florin in 1887. Might be it was a social experiment to see how the crown (which was related to the halfcrown) would compare against the double florin (which was related to the florin) in popularity? 

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7 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

It's a really interesting question, the general use of crowns.

In the early milled period, few of the general population would have ever earned or saved enough to own a crown, so I'm guessing that - like guineas etc - they were used by aristocrats for gambling with, or by businessmen etc to settle bills at clothes/furniture/antiques/grocery shops etc.

Once the population began to increase in the Industrial Revolution, there would have been a greater demand for copper and small silver but not  crowns. The 1817-1820 issue was regarded as limited and special, though there was a brief period under GeoIV when they seem to have reappeared. Then they virtually disappear in the 19thC except for limited issues for Victoria, until 1887 when they reappear for nearly 15 years. Why? Was it the emergence of a suburban office-working middle class that could afford higher denominations? It has been suggested that even then they were of very limited popularity and after 1902 the Treasury stopped bothering with them altogether, as currency. Note that the mintage figures for halfcrowns in the period far exceeds those for crowns.

They seem to have retained some measure of acceptance as commemoratives (which rarely circulated), until the early 1990s when the value was raised to £5 and they became a simple exercise in turning a profit for the Mint.

We will never know for sure, but it does seem more probable than not, that they didn't circulate. Certainly not widely. 

Maybe a very few did somehow enter circulation, and became a bit like the 1986 £2 coin prior to 1997. You very occasionally got one in your change, as I remember (although you never do now) 

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For me, it is not particularly important how many (or very few!!) of the wreath crowns circulated but there was the theoretical option of spending them at the time if one wished. This made them "real coins" in a sense. I just don't consider (or get excited with) commemorates which can never be spent (or even exchanged in banks these days) as genuine coins. 

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27 minutes ago, Sword said:

For me, it is not particularly important how many (or very few!!) of the wreath crowns circulated but there was the theoretical option of spending them at the time if one wished. This made them "real coins" in a sense. I just don't consider (or get excited with) commemorates which can never be spent (or even exchanged in banks these days) as genuine coins. 

the question is - who would take them? there were so few of them that I just don't see any commercial enterprise being willing to trust them as 'real money'.

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They were the same size as the previous crowns and had the word "crown" on it. In addition, the obverse design is the same as the circulating coins of lower denominations. The Royal Mint must have been advertising them yearly so that people know they are available. My feeling is that if crowns were still being circulated in the 1920s, they could have been accepted. True, what I have just said has a significant element of hope rather than evidence. 

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Is this any different to the number of shops that won't take £50 notes, despite them being regular circulating currency? Sure a £50 note is a bit large relative to the average purse contents even today, just as the case is being made here for the crown to be too large for the masses nearly a century ago, but there will have been a considerable number of people who wouldn't have an issue with them, just as I always have a good number of 50s here because people buying coins for cash at fairs regularly pay with them.

I think we ignore the amount of wealth in peoples' pockets in the past at our peril. When some (admittedly rare) coins were changing hands for decent 3 figure sums in the Victorian era, a crown would be a trifling sum for a good number of people - certainly enough for them to be used. On a more mundane level, most lots were selling for at least half a guinea. Even my Philip & Mary portrait penny sold in Cuff (1854) for £6 - which is a lot of crowns. Given numismatics only occupies a niche in society, the population overall must have had ample scope to use them.

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Not being in business, I don't come in contact with £50 notes. Yet, I know what it looks like as I have seen the adverts when the note was introduced. I would have no problem in accepting them if the occasion arrives. Come to think of it, cashiers in many large shops would also accept Scottish banknotes despite not being familiar with their designs. 

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It's plausible that some Wreath crowns may have circulated, as you find them in really low grades, not just VF or Fine. I've seen an example which probably wouldn't even make "Fair". 

In the early days of the 0.500 silver coinage I imagine a fair bit of 0.925 silver was still in circulation. If you look at the bottom grade Old Head crowns, or George V sterling halfcrowns, some of which are barely readable, this seems pretty plausible. 

If people were used to accepting Victorian crowns through the first half of the 1920s, if a wreath crown popped up in 1927 or 1930 it's hard to see them rejecting it as not being current.

It might be impossible to spend £5 coins now, let alone the silver £20 pieces etc. but then no-one alive today save for a few super-centenarians can possibly remember crown sized coins being in circulation. When it had been less than a decade since they disappeared from circulation it seems rather more likely that they would have been accepted. 

 

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On 1/1/2020 at 1:38 PM, copper123 said:

I do believe that the 1954 penny is the rarest coin to have ever circulated ,it along with the 1952 halfcrown both were found in circulation  both are one of a kind and the kew gardens coin while pretty scarce I must admit 210, 000  is quite a lot , its just the media love making things up

 

On 1/1/2020 at 6:13 PM, 1949threepence said:

Plus, of course, those very few Edward VIII threepences. 

The 1954 penny, 1952 halfcrown and Edward VIII threepences entered circulation accidentally though. 210k is a pretty low mintage for an intended circulation coin. The only one with a lower mintage that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1951 penny and even that was not (at least intentionally) released for circulation in the UK.

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53 minutes ago, Coys55 said:

 

The 1954 penny, 1952 halfcrown and Edward VIII threepences entered circulation accidentally though. 210k is a pretty low mintage for an intended circulation coin. The only one with a lower mintage that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1951 penny and even that was not (at least intentionally) released for circulation in the UK.

All maundy coins are legal tender and every date has a much lower mintage than the kew gardens 50p

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1 hour ago, Coys55 said:

 

The 1954 penny, 1952 halfcrown and Edward VIII threepences entered circulation accidentally though. 210k is a pretty low mintage for an intended circulation coin. The only one with a lower mintage that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1951 penny and even that was not (at least intentionally) released for circulation in the UK.

Indeed, if you want to go for a lower mintage figure penny which was intentionally released into circulation in the UK, you'd have to go back to 1848, ignoring oddities like the 1860 copper issue, 1882 London etc. 

Having said that, the numbers aren't really comparable. There are tens of thousands of Kew Gardens pennies in mint state, given the release of the mint sets. By that metric, the scarcity of these in choice grade is likely comparable to an earlier coin with mintage in the tens of millions. 

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On 1/2/2020 at 11:30 PM, 1949threepence said:

There's a 1934 example in this link which is GF/NVF - looks circulated. It's the second one sold on 5.12.16.

Notwithstanding the scarcity, and considering the price they sell for, there certainly appears to be no shortage in the supply for sale over the years.  

They tend to be sold first by a collector at they are so valueable .

They were easy to trade in quickly for ready cash , its all churn , churn,churn

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