Cracking Queen

[Nicholas]

This is a close up of my 20P Mule. Surprisingly, It's graded CGS 82 and virtually as struck. The reverse looks perfect, but the Obverse shows die cracks. I've noticed the same thing on some other 20P mules.

I'm still trying to piece together the set of events at the Mint that led to this astonishing Mule. Clearly this Die was ready for replacement when the phenomenon occurred. Does anyone know the details of how it occurred?

[Coinery]

Just as an aside, what did CGS value it at?

[copper123]

I have had several of these mules and also had the pleasure of examining them close up (well before all the hype in the newspapers etc started),and ALL have had the defective obverse die which really should have been scraped by the royal mint .

I would conclude therefore that only ONE pair of dies was used to make the mules ( though i could be wrong i surpose)

Also the coins show a marked obverse and a few look in worse state than others .

I would expect that the coin dies were twined up for at least a month before the mistake was noticed , pos even longer

[copper123]

I suspect it happened because of the "dent" rose obverse 20p die was twined with the wrong reverse.

Easy mistake to make i would emagin when you have two different obverses and two different reverses in one year

Edited June 6, 2014 by copper123

[Nicholas]

Thanks. But surely the Mint is watching for substantially wearing dies like this obverse AND incorrect Twining? How did both things occur together or are they related in some way?

[copper123]

Maybe a obverse die that was due to be scraped wasn't and was accidentally used again by mistake - my idea of what happened

Edited June 6, 2014 by copper123

[Nicholas]

Interesting!

[AardHawk]

I would expect that the coin dies were twined up for at least a month before the mistake was noticed , pos even longer

Why do you say a month? A modern coining press is producing at least 500 coins a minute so we are only looking at seven hours production here, assuming that the Royal Mints estimate of less than 200,000 coins is correct..

[azda]

If it was used for several hours then the coins would have never reached circulation before finding out they had reused the same die, the would/should have then went back and check what had been minted.

Edited June 7, 2014 by azda

[pies]

From what I have seen over the short time I have been collecting coins is that the royal mints quality control has been and still is very poor

[copper123]

it has gone worse yes but the coins are at least not made as cheap as pos like in the usa , cent coins are very poorly made

[AardHawk]

If it was used for several hours then the coins would have never reached circulation before finding out they had reused the same die, the would/should have then went back and check what had been minted.

I cant understand what you are saying. I dont think you have a clue about the industrial process.

[Nicholas]

This is what I'm asking. If someone knows the industrial process, then perhaps can explain the likely sequence of events that led to an undated coin and it's relationship to a worn out Obverse die..

Certainly the length of time it was being produced would be interesting to me as well.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Nicholas

[Nordle11]

If it was used for several hours then the coins would have never reached circulation before finding out they had reused the same die, the would/should have then went back and check what had been minted.

I cant understand what you are saying. I dont think you have a clue about the industrial process.

Lol what? Makes perfect sense to me. And I'm also pretty sure Azda has an understanding of how coins are produced haha

[AardHawk]

Lol wot. I know that English isnt azdas language of choice, but I think he was pissed when he wrote that. There's no posting time so cant actually prove that!

[Rob]

I've always assumed they start out a new design with a new pair of dies, but then replace each die as it disintegrates. As both don't normally fail at the same time you can build up a sequence to determine which dies were paired and the sequence of that pairing. This works for low mintage issues such as the sequence established for the Guernsey coinage. For longer runs utilising many dies, if they decide to stop producing a denomination then the dies are removed and set aside. Depending on where they are placed would determine whether the old pair were reinserted at a later date or a random pair were used later. I think they would have more than a single die pair, so a later pairing would be what is in the die box. If the obsolete ones were not discarded, this is where they would go and hence be available for later use.