4 Points Difference Is Valued At £350

[azda]

Browsing through the forthcoming Londons catalogue i came across 2 lots. Lots 1386 a 1902 crown graded as CGS 82 and the finest they have graded apparently from 26 coins thus far and top estimate is £600

Lot 1389, same coin with just 4 points difference at CGS 78 with a top estimate of £250. My question is, do we think a 4 point difference is worth £350?

(null)

[NRP]

What I don't get is that it is the best they have graded so far!! They have only graded 20 +, 1902s are so common that I will gurantee there are many more that would reach that grade or better so does it warrant the price to be £600 + !!

[Peter]

I agree with Neil.

They are a fairly rare coin but just buy raw.

[Paulus]

It is valued at £750 on the CGS web site!

[Peter]

It is valued at £750 on the CGS web site!

£395 in Spink.

Double your money (almost)for a bit of plastic with a label and someone's opinion.

[Nick]

£750 Is it worth that? No. Will somebody pay that? Probably.

[Accumulator]

Hmmmm… well I was about to answer that there's quite a difference between a 78 and an 82 grade (and so there should be), then I took a look at the coins in question.

Is it my imagination, or is there slightly more wear to the better graded coin? Check the strap running across St. George's chest. there's little doubt that the 78 Crown exhibits less wear here. There are other examples too. Oh dear!

[Coppers]

Seems that they are basing their estimates on the American model where a one point difference in grade can represent thousands of dollars in part due to the registry set game where one collector is trying for a higher point score than another. As Neil points out the small population of coins graded can make a highest graded designation meaningless and I am not so certain that even were a higher percentage graded such valuations are warranted.

[azda]

It will be interesting too see if the higher grade one actually sells consodering the other is only 3 lots further on at a consoderably lesser estimate.

[mike]

What I don't get is that it is the best they have graded so far!! They have only graded 20 +, 1902s are so common that I will gurantee there are many more that would reach that grade or better so does it warrant the price to be £600 + !!

Neil, generally speaking it is very difficult to find a raw crown size currency coin which would grade CGS 80, not mentioning grades 82 or 85. This is because the CGS benchmark grading scale assesses a variety of grading components for each coin submitted some of which such as marks (small scratches, surface abrasions, bagmarks and all other contact marks) are likely to score higher (thus reducing the overall grade) on larger coins as they have a large area to be subjected to the marks than smaller coins.

I have just check CGS population report and from 364 currency crowns (1887 – 1902) only 6 achieved grade 82 and only one grade 85. I think this is representative sample, especially as most of the crowns being submitted for grading are being considered to be UNC by their owners. However if you think that there is “many more of this common crowns that would reach better grade than 82”, please pick up one, send it for grading and if it grades 85 or higher I would happily pay well above the book price – you can make easy profit!

I agree that estimate is high (and I am not going to bid on this one) but I appreciate that the seller is not keen to let it go cheaply for reasons mentioned above. Especially as quality (rather than rarity) is the buzzword at the moment.

[azda]

I think the BUZZ Word on that crown may not apply, but your reply Hit a note with me Mike. You're obviously a CGS slab buyer, perhaps of crowns even, its interesting to Note that this

FINEST GRADED CGS coin does not interest you. It can't be possible that you have better because CGS tells us that its the best, so why does'nt it interest you?

[azda]

Also interesting to note Mike that you challanged Neil to find one better but won't buy the best in meantime

[NRP]

What I don't get is that it is the best they have graded so far!! They have only graded 20 +, 1902s are so common that I will gurantee there are many more that would reach that grade or better so does it warrant the price to be £600 + !!

Neil, generally speaking it is very difficult to find a raw crown size currency coin which would grade CGS 80, not mentioning grades 82 or 85. This is because the CGS benchmark grading scale assesses a variety of grading components for each coin submitted some of which such as marks (small scratches, surface abrasions, bagmarks and all other contact marks) are likely to score higher (thus reducing the overall grade) on larger coins as they have a large area to be subjected to the marks than smaller coins.

I have just check CGS population report and from 364 currency crowns (1887 1902) only 6 achieved grade 82 and only one grade 85. I think this is representative sample, especially as most of the crowns being submitted for grading are being considered to be UNC by their owners. However if you think that there is many more of this common crowns that would reach better grade than 82, please pick up one, send it for grading and if it grades 85 or higher I would happily pay well above the book price you can make easy profit!

I agree that estimate is high (and I am not going to bid on this one) but I appreciate that the seller is not keen to let it go cheaply for reasons mentioned above. Especially as quality (rather than rarity) is the buzzword at the moment.

Ha I love a challenge!!! I will take you up on that ;-) on my database in the last 10 years I have had many 1902s in practically mint which I know would slab extremely high because one of the cgs graders visits me at least once a week.

Don't worry I won't hold you to purchasing it, I just want to see how difficult or easy it may be. I bet there will suddenly be a shortage of 1902 crowns now I am trying to find one ;-)

[azda]

Lets also bear in mind that of the CGS 82 one sells at top estimate it will cost the buyer £900, somehow i cannot see that Happening.

Coppers, interesting theory you mentioned

About CGS trying to dictate pricing, however i cannot see this happening, 2 reasons for this, 1 they are'nt big enough to dictate and 2 British buyers are'nt fallimg over themselves to buy the same grade slabned coin for a 1 point adjustment. Just my opinion

Edited February 12, 2014 by azda

[Accumulator]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

[Peckris]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

[Paulus]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

It seems crystal clear to me too ... I take it the one on the left has been graded 82, and the one on the right, 78? Does the obverse tell a different story?

Edited February 12, 2014 by Paulus

[Accumulator]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

Thank you Peckris. Then you'll be surprised to know that the coin on the left is graded CGS 82 and estimated at £400-600. The one on the right is graded CGS 78 and estimated at £200-250

Edit: (and Paulus)

Edited February 12, 2014 by Accumulator

[mike]

I think the BUZZ Word on that crown may not apply, but your reply Hit a note with me Mike. You're obviously a CGS slab buyer, perhaps of crowns even, its interesting to Note that this

FINEST GRADED CGS coin does not interest you. It can't be possible that you have better because CGS tells us that its the best, so why does'nt it interest you?

Hi Azda,

it is simple – I fell in love with YH Victorian Half crowns and New Coinage of George III. My personal challenge is to build up collection of these coins in high grades and my coin budget is limited... (as my wife kindly keeps reminding me :-) ). I aim for Crowns and half crowns in grade 80 or above, lower denominations in grades above 85. Not because of the number but because - in my personal experience - there is a consistent quality behind these grades. Saying that I am always buying the coin not the number on the slab, if I do not like the eye-appeal or anything else – I pass. My main reason for preferring to have my coins slabbed is mainly protection (as these are high grade, usually lustrous coins) and ease of viewing without worrying about possible damage (even my young children can have a look and handle UNC bronze pennies with full lustre). Also I know, that I can always remove them from slab in the future.

I am not going after “finest known” just because it is “finest known” and I am not willing to pay premium for them (unless as a coincidence it is coin I am looking for) because what is finest known today may not be finest known tomorrow. Especially with their low population record.

Mike

[mike]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

In my experience it is not possible to compare CGS grades from photographs because of the principle of CGS grading - each of many components is separately measured against benchmark coins. Lot of these components you can not properly assess on photograph - such as lustre, number hairlines, cabinet friction, rim etc. It is possible (i have not seen the coins in hand) that coin graded 82 has got nearly full underlying lustre, no hairlines, no cabinet friction etc which can lead to higher CGS grade in spite of the blemishes you can see on the photograph. Coin graded 78 has got a small spot on horse's neck, possible stain at 6 o'clock and in "0" of date - all this can lower the final grade when computer algorithm calculates the final numerical grade. Obviously, there is always possibility that the grader had a bad day... Thats why I always do my best to see the coin in hand before buying.

[Peter]

From the images I would prefer the coin on the right.

The strike is cleaner.

[Sword]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

Am I alone in thinking that the coin on the right is acutally a matt proof and not a currency coin? The strike looks to me to be too good for normal currency (esp. in the area of St George's chest and strap). The grading would make more sense if that's the case.

[Nick]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

Am I alone in thinking that the coin on the right is acutally a matt proof and not a currency coin? The strike looks to me to be too good for normal currency (esp. in the area of St George's chest and strap). The grading would make more sense if that's the case.

I think so too.

[mike]

Has anyone studied the coins carefully? Here are the two reverses… Check the chest area of St. George around the strap, his thigh muscles, the chest muscles of the horse, the rim etc. and tell me which is the better graded coin?

It seems clear to me that the coin on the right is the sharper, better strike. The one on the left has lovelier tone certainly, but less detail.

Am I alone in thinking that the coin on the right is acutally a matt proof and not a currency coin? The strike looks to me to be too good for normal currency (esp. in the area of St George's chest and strap). The grading would make more sense if that's the case.

good point

[Peckris]

I think that's a distinct possibility : my own example is as near BU as you could get (despite the noxious lousy scan ) but as you can see, the strike is no better than the coin on the left :