Grading And A Pricing Query

[Paulus]

Can I ask what are people's thoughts on the following coin?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-1806-George-III-Half-Penny-/201029077663?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2ece444a9f

If you are after opinions on price and grade, my opinion would be overpriced and nVF-VF. I would not expect to pay more than £15 for this common coin in that condition, and if I was building a George III collection I would personally want one in a strong problem-free EF in the £40-£50 range, but that depends upon one's budget, of course!

Here's one in a stronger grade (in my opinion) that I picked up from eBay for £24 a few months ago. They come up quite often.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Paulus

[Peckris]

It's a perfectly respectable example - NVF/VF+ or thereabouts. But I wouldn't pay £30 for it. In fact I'm still looking out for a top example, to go with my Unc farthing and penny. You'd not think it would be at all difficult, but I still haven't found the right one.

[richtips86]

Paulus, that does look beautiful - I've just completely readjusted my opinion!

[Peckris]

I currently have this very strange example (forgive the horrible look - it's been doubled in size in Photoshop, a very degrading experience) : the strangeness is due to what looks like an artificial sharpness possibly caused by retooling. I've never seen another quite like it and you'd have to see it in hand to fully appreciate its strangeness..

[Accumulator]

I currently have this very strange example (forgive the horrible look - it's been doubled in size in Photoshop, a very degrading experience) : the strangeness is due to what looks like an artificial sharpness possibly caused by retooling. I've never seen another quite like it and you'd have to see it in hand to fully appreciate its strangeness..

Very hard to tell from the photos, Peckris, but the hair in particular almost looks like a rusty die? It could of course have been re-tooled to give the impression of a few more curls!

[richtips86]

Not that I'm now interested but just for my knowledge, what are the particular big turn offs on this coin? And by that I mean the original coin I posted.

[Coinery]

Do you mean the first of the 3, the 1889 Crown?

If so, I think the grade is its biggest downfall. It also looks to be cleaned! You only put up the reverse, but I'm guessing the obverse would've been equally uninspiring. Its only saving grace for me was a reasonable reverse edge/rim, which is not a common quality on such a large, obviously well-circulated, coin!

[Paulus]

I would agree, there is nothing particularly 'wrong' with it, other than possibly having been cleaned at some stage, it has a nice rim, and no obvious damage (edge knocks, digs, gouges, etc). It's just that it is very worn, and once you own some higher grade coins it is difficult to find the lower grade ones attractive, particularly those that are fairly easy to obtain (depending, of course, on budget!)

For reference, here is the same coin in EF:

[Peckris]

I currently have this very strange example (forgive the horrible look - it's been doubled in size in Photoshop, a very degrading experience) : the strangeness is due to what looks like an artificial sharpness possibly caused by retooling. I've never seen another quite like it and you'd have to see it in hand to fully appreciate its strangeness..

Very hard to tell from the photos, Peckris, but the hair in particular almost looks like a rusty die? It could of course have been re-tooled to give the impression of a few more curls!

Yes, my thoughts too, along the way. I'd recorded it (in early ignorance) as "possible Taylor restrike?", except that Taylor didn't restrike common currency pieces.

[richtips86]

I would agree, there is nothing particularly 'wrong' with it, other than possibly having been cleaned at some stage, it has a nice rim, and no obvious damage (edge knocks, digs, gouges, etc). It's just that it is very worn, and once you own some higher grade coins it is difficult to find the lower grade ones attractive, particularly those that are fairly easy to obtain (depending, of course, on budget!)

For reference, here is the same coin in EF:

Apologies, no I meant the half penny I copied the link for from ebay. No the pictures I added were coins from my grandad that my dad gave me at Christmas which I'm resigned to realising dad only gave me the lower value coins to pique my interest.

[Paulus]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

[Coinery]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

Sums it up, I'd say!

[Peckris]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF.

[Paulus]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF.

Perhaps GF is a tad harsh, it is early milled after all, but I really couldn't bring myself to give it more than nVF, it just has too much overall wear for me!

[Peckris]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF.

Perhaps GF is a tad harsh, it is early milled after all, but I really couldn't bring myself to give it more than nVF, it just has too much overall wear for me!

But.. but.. there is very little on the reverse! Britannia's left t*t is the obvious wear, but look at the shield, olive branch, trident, and "SOHO" - hardly any wear at all.

[Paulus]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF.

Perhaps GF is a tad harsh, it is early milled after all, but I really couldn't bring myself to give it more than nVF, it just has too much overall wear for me!

But.. but.. there is very little on the reverse! Britannia's left t*t is the obvious wear, but look at the shield, olive branch, trident, and "SOHO" - hardly any wear at all.

It's true, there are areas that are GVF, and areas that are barely better than F, I guess I am not comfortable with 'averaging' these out and tend to err on the low side!

[richtips86]

Thanks for all of this. As I said, I heeded the advice and wont buy, I was just interested to see what people disliked about it because as a novice I did quite like it and so wondered what you guys didn't like.

Edited February 6, 2014 by richtips86

[Accumulator]

Okay, this one then:

There's nothing wrong with it as an apparently problem-free F-GF example (IMO), if it was £10-£15 ... but it's £32.49 delivered, for which you should be able to do considerably better, with a little patience.

For me it's a little 'lifeless' and has no eye appeal.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF.

Perhaps GF is a tad harsh, it is early milled after all, but I really couldn't bring myself to give it more than nVF, it just has too much overall wear for me!

But.. but.. there is very little on the reverse! Britannia's left t*t is the obvious wear, but look at the shield, olive branch, trident, and "SOHO" - hardly any wear at all.

It's true, there are areas that are GVF, and areas that are barely better than F, I guess I am not comfortable with 'averaging' these out and tend to err on the low side!

I would agree between GF and VF but, certainly for a VF grade, one would expect a more attractive coin. The fields look rather pitted, effectively lowering the relief of the design, and the overall colouring doesn't help. Definitely one to avoid as there are many more of these out there!

[Paulus]

Thanks for all of this. As I said, I heeded the advice and wont buy, I was just interested to see what people disliked about it because as a novice I did quite like it and so wondered what you guys didn't like.

As you can see Rich, we love a good debate about grading/desirability, these sorts of posts are always welcome!

Have you come closer to deciding what you initial focus will be?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Paulus

[richtips86]

There's so many coins, designs and the historical links (which is most important for me) that I'm thinking....everything! haha

Seriously though, I think I'm going to go with George III. I'm really interested by all the re-stamping (probably got the terminology wrong) of foreign coins, though from what I've seen the prices are unrealistic at the moment. But then I have a lot of these coins from my granddad which are turn of the 20th century and feel it would be a good start. So still not really sure.

[Rob]

It's all going to depend on how much money you are prepared to throw at the hobby. If the amount is seriously limited, then modern things would be better as you get more for your money, but you should always get them in top grade if you take this route. If you want to get mostly G3, increased costs come into play. At that point you need to sit down and do some costings to ascertain whether you have, or are prepared, to make sufficient funds available for the target you set yourself.

'Re-stamping of foreign coins' implies you are interested in the countermarked 4R & 8R and/or restruck Spanish 8 reales pieces by the Soho mint. These are not particularly popular as a collecting area, but many collectors want an example of the type(s). As a consequence they are quite cheap in comparison to crowns or halfcrowns. The market is quite thin, but there are many rarities within the series as you have to consider the host coin. There are a few forgeries knocking about in the form of false countermarks or silver dipped copper casts.The latter are quite obvious, the former less so as you need to familiarise yourself with the punches used for the genuine article. Even within this small series, there are some rare pattern and proof pieces which go for eye-watering sums.

I personally think they are a good series due to their relative unpopularity.................... but I am a natural contrarian.

[Accumulator]

If you do like George III copper and have the budget, then you might consider going for a proof coin rather than accepting a circulation strike, especially a worn example. Proofs of, say, 1806 pennies are fairly numerous and have a crispness in the detail you won't otherwise find, they also seem fairly unloved at the moment so prices are keen. Again, there are many second grade proofs around but after a while you'll recognise a good one when you see it.

[Peckris]

George III is an excellent reign to choose - it's more varied even than Victoria, with all kinds of coin revolutions taking place over its 60 years; it's fair to say that when it began, Britain was in the early milled era, but when it ended the coinage we were familiar with up to decimalisation, was in place. Of course, that coincides with the Industrial Revolution, which makes it even more interesting.

There are quite a lot of high grade issues you could place in the 'affordable' bracket (certainly relative to any previous reign): 1787 shillings and sixpences; coppers from 1799 - 1807; shillings and sixpences from 1816; even halfcrowns and crowns are not out of reach in VF or VF+. Nor indeed are coppers 1770-75, or the two cartwheel denominations. Tokens are relatively cheap ... the list goes on.

[Peter]

Proofs are not coins...I've said it now as I duck below Mrs Peter.....not naughty

[Accumulator]

Proofs are not coins...I've said it now as I duck below Mrs Peter.....not naughty

Proof: "a coin which has been specially struck, to produce the finest specimen of its type"

So that'll be a coin then. …watch out Mrs Peter!