azda Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 So if you want to know how it's done...........Of course its natural Quote
Accumulator Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 So if you want to know how it's done...........Of course its natural Very instructive video. Incredible that you actually see rainbow toned coins slabbed by the big TPGs (though not by CGS, to my knowledge). Avoid at all cost! Quote
Peckris Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 So if you want to know how it's done...........Of course its natural Very instructive video. Incredible that you actually see rainbow toned coins slabbed by the big TPGs (though not by CGS, to my knowledge). Avoid at all cost!Hear hear. Quote
VickySilver Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 My thoughts are that even if this is not the exact procedure, it brings to the point of feasible that such type of thing is possible. I had pointed out some time ago, and to no avail on the PCGS boards that coins with these appearances did not seem IMO to appear until the last 12 to 15 years. Also, I do have some chemical background and the appearance of this "neon" toning is just not like normal oxidation. I am wondering if there is a way to layer other metal oxides on to the surface of silver coins in particular. I asked a couple of the champions of these coins to submit them to spectroscopic and this was all poo-pooed....It might just be my sensation, but I get the feeling that the market for this type of thing may [hopefully] be panning out... Quote
Mr T Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 coins with these appearances did not seem IMO to appear until the last 12 to 15 yearsWell that's interesting.I remember quite recently seeing some Morgan dollars with toning like that and the asking prices were really high for otherwise ordinary coins. Quote
azda Posted February 20, 2013 Author Posted February 20, 2013 coins with these appearances did not seem IMO to appear until the last 12 to 15 yearsWell that's interesting.I remember quite recently seeing some Morgan dollars with toning like that and the asking prices were really high for otherwise ordinary coins.Hence the reason the americans go to great lengths to tone them, then try and Tell us that its all naturally toned. Uh huh course it is, thank god we Brits have a bit of grey matter between our ears, the American buyers of the awful coloured Coins on the other hand Quote
Mr T Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 I guess when you think about it, a lot of that can toning is artificial anyway. Storing coins in sulphur-laced bags isn't really natural. Quote
VickySilver Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 They are having a bit of a battle on the PCGS US Coins forum on this at the moment. It appears the gallant attempt to crack into this crap is being vigorously attacked by staunch defenders of this outrageous "Coin Doctoring" and toning effort - well that is IMO. Quote
Generic Lad Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 I've heard that there are people who will apply toning to coins still in the slab since slabs are not airtight. But the question also remains what is "natural" toning? You can get wild toning by keeping a coin near something that burns coal, you can also get it by storing the coin in cardboard for a long time, or you can speed up the process by adding heat. What is the dividing line between "natural" or "unnatural" toning? Quote
VickySilver Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Which is a point well made. However, toning that is neon green, yellow, pink, etc. is WAY beyond the normal spectrum (pun intended). You really need to see some of these. Try a google search of the "Battle Creek" morgan dollars... Quote
Rob Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 It's a difficult question because at some point you are going to produce an AT coin that looks exactly the same as an NT one. I guess the starting point is what 100, 200, 400 year old silver looks like if untouched, which is that eventually it will go black. An evenly toned coin is far more likely to be accepted as NT than a multi-hued disc, particularly when the latter coin is modern. Random toning in different colours is far more likely to be NT, such as the patchy iridescent colours seen on coins from the 1800s - but even this doesn't exclude the possibility that the colours are due to the residue of a Georgian take-away. This is rarely seen on say 300 year old coins which have had a longer existence and in the main tone down to an even purple tinge with underlying gold highlights. Given that very few coins have a full history of their location over the past century or two, it is ultimately up to the individual to decide. Obviously there is no such thing as 'standard' toning, but there are sufficient examples of all eras to say what a typical coin will look like. There are of course also exceptions - good example of which is a 1731 shilling that I liberated from a broken Georgian drinking vessel base. This was still fully lustred.The situation is slightly different for copper, as it tends to dull consistently with only prooflike specimens showing iridescence, which in turn relies to a large extent on the angle of the incident light. I think most people dislike the fact that someone has deliberately tampered with the surfaces and are naturally suspicious of the motives. You can also get inadvertent toning from the surroundings which although is strictly AT, was not done with intent. A good example being a friend of mine who asked if some coins were worth anything. The box of G5 silver had been carefully laid out with lamb's wool to protect the coins and the entire contents were unc with an olive tone from the wool. AT or NT? Quote
Peckris Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 You can also get inadvertent toning from the surroundings which although is strictly AT, was not done with intent. A good example being a friend of mine who asked if some coins were worth anything. The box of G5 silver had been carefully laid out with lamb's wool to protect the coins and the entire contents were unc with an olive tone from the wool. AT or NT?Sounds lovely! I've had coins that are artificially bright and may well have been cleaned at some point, and banged them into my mahogany medals cabinet (like for coins but with no cut outs) - they can tone back quite quickly in there. For example my GEF 1844 halfcrown had some lovely gold toning on the reverse, but the obverse - especially the bust - looked unnaturally bright. Putting it in that cabinet has imparted some nice red toning to the obverse. AT? Not sure really, but I don't regret what I did. Quote
azda Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 They are having a bit of a battle on the PCGS US Coins forum on this at the moment. It appears the gallant attempt to crack into this crap is being vigorously attacked by staunch defenders of this outrageous "Coin Doctoring" and toning effort - well that is IMO.Those defending it will be those who have most to lose, the very people who doctor the coins and sell them on at vastly inflated prices----IMO Quote
Coppers Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 They are having a bit of a battle on the PCGS US Coins forum on this at the moment. It appears the gallant attempt to crack into this crap is being vigorously attacked by staunch defenders of this outrageous "Coin Doctoring" and toning effort - well that is IMO.Those defending it will be those who have most to lose, the very people who doctor the coins and sell them on at vastly inflated prices----IMOMany of the ones defending these 'toned' coins are those who collect them and they are in for very rude awakening. Quote
Paulus Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Do any of the TPGs refuse to grade/slab suspected AT'd coins? Quote
Peckris Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Do any of the TPGs refuse to grade/slab suspected AT'd coins?I hope CGS set a precedent for that, but I doubt if the American TPGs will take a blind bit of notice Quote
Generic Lad Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Do any of the TPGs refuse to grade/slab suspected AT'd coins?Yes, PCGS/NGC will refuse to, indeed PCGS is proud of their "sniffer" which is supposed to catch doctored coins ( http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=17156 ) and NGC/PCGS will refuse to grade artificially toned coins ( http://www.ngccoin.com/details/altered-coin-surfaces.aspx and http://www.pcgs.com/nogrades.html) The problem is that they often miss some and since they claim to refuse to grade them any that get by are immediately considered to be "natural" toning to American buyers even though its as fake as fake can get. There's also people who claim to be able to tone coins already slabbed in PCGS/NGC holders, further making them questionable. Like all TPGed coins, buy the coin and not the piece of plastic. Quote
VickySilver Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Well, I think this is a problem that has many angles to it. "Greattoning" on ebay sells enormous quantities of toned goodies, The colours on the Battle Creek Morgans is something to see with neon pinks, greens, yellows, etc.- take a look at these if you have the chance.I have read some scientific papers embarrasingly beyond my comprehension mainly related to the microchemistry and interfaces of semi-conductor chips, and also charged ion electrodeposition - I wonder if they may be employed in generating some of these wonders?? Quote
azda Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 Do any of the TPGs refuse to grade/slab suspected AT'd coins?Yes, PCGS/NGC will refuse to, indeed PCGS is proud of their "sniffer" which is supposed to catch doctored coins ( http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=17156 ) and NGC/PCGS will refuse to grade artificially toned coins ( http://www.ngccoin.com/details/altered-coin-surfaces.aspx and http://www.pcgs.com/nogrades.html) The problem is that they often miss some and since they claim to refuse to grade them any that get by are immediately considered to be "natural" toning to American buyers even though its as fake as fake can get. There's also people who claim to be able to tone coins already slabbed in PCGS/NGC holders, further making them questionable. Like all TPGed coins, buy the coin and not the piece of plastic.The fact that the TPGs know it happens says it all really. Quote
VickySilver Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Just for fun, it is claimed that the toning on Morgan Dollar coins in the Redfield Collection was caused by exposure of the bags to COYOTE URINE!Also, it was stated and I have never seen it before that some of the toning is as a result of sulfurous rat poison being thrown on the bags of Morganswhilst they resided in the vaults for so many years.... Quote
azda Posted February 23, 2013 Author Posted February 23, 2013 Just for fun, it is claimed that the toning on Morgan Dollar coins in the Redfield Collection was caused by exposure of the bags to COYOTE URINE!Also, it was stated and I have never seen it before that some of the toning is as a result of sulfurous rat poison being thrown on the bags of Morganswhilst they resided in the vaults for so many years....Coyotes and Rats, lol, yeah, something stinks of piss for sure. Quote
Nick Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Given that NT and AT both occur and at some point the boundary between the two must become a little blurred. How does anybody decide what is natural and what isn't? It seems to me that the opinion here is: if it's brightly coloured or multi-coloured then it must be AT, otherwise it's NT.What is your opinion of the toning on this 1911 proof set? The toning is pretty similar toning to that of my 1911 proofs. Quote
Accumulator Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Given that NT and AT both occur and at some point the boundary between the two must become a little blurred. How does anybody decide what is natural and what isn't? It seems to me that the opinion here is: if it's brightly coloured or multi-coloured then it must be AT, otherwise it's NT.What is your opinion of the toning on this 1911 proof set? The toning is pretty similar toning to that of my 1911 proofs.I'm not sure about the toning but I'm very happy with the price!! :D Quote
Peckris Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Given that NT and AT both occur and at some point the boundary between the two must become a little blurred. How does anybody decide what is natural and what isn't? It seems to me that the opinion here is: if it's brightly coloured or multi-coloured then it must be AT, otherwise it's NT.What is your opinion of the toning on this 1911 proof set? The toning is pretty similar toning to that of my 1911 proofs.I'm not sure about the toning but I'm very happy with the price!! :DThe price is sheer BUNC ! I'm not sure about "The requested content cannot be loaded - please try again later" though. Quote
Nick Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Given that NT and AT both occur and at some point the boundary between the two must become a little blurred. How does anybody decide what is natural and what isn't? It seems to me that the opinion here is: if it's brightly coloured or multi-coloured then it must be AT, otherwise it's NT.What is your opinion of the toning on this 1911 proof set? The toning is pretty similar toning to that of my 1911 proofs.I'm not sure about the toning but I'm very happy with the price!! :DIt's an old page that hasn't quite been removed properly. That set was sold long ago. I don't think GK have ever sold anything that cheap! Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.